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Bee Informed National Survey

35K views 122 replies 19 participants last post by  Oldtimer 
#1 ·
Please go to http://beeinformed.org/participate/ and take the survey. It can be pretty involved depending on your specific case, but do what you can.

I just took the survey and am looking at some of the results from last year. Colony losses between different management styles (no non-bee derived products, natural only, prefer natural, use anything, other) were not statistically significant. In fact, the the range was between 31-36% with the first option rating at about 33%.

The difference between migratory and non-migratory was 30%, 34% respectively.

http://beeinformed.org/results/

We see a lot of numbers in a lot of different directions, but the averages are not statistically different. I mentioned previously the differences between treating and non treating for varroa specifically were less than ten percent, I'm looking at the graph now and losses with no varroa treatment were 37% and treated were 29%, so only 8% difference. It's clear from the numbers that the ones who treated are more often commercial beekeepers, averaging 150 colonies, and the ones who didn't treat were less so, averaging 20 colonies.

According to the stats, powdered sugar was NOT helpful, actually increasing losses compared to whatever else was done.

Coumaphos only ~2.5% better than doing nothing.

Formic Acid, 6% better than nothing.

Fluvalinate, 2% better than nothing.

Miscellaneous herbal products, 3% better than nothing.

Small Cell, 1% worse than nothing on average, but varying widely. Using small cell in all colonies 2% better than in no colonies, but still widely varying. Shows a small bad correlation for going half way as it were.

SSB 2% better than nothing.

Here's an interesting one, drone removal, using it 1% worse than not using it. Dodged a bullet there.

Terramycin and Tylosin, 2% better than nothing.

Fumagillin and Nosevet, wash.


Again, I'm not seeing anything all the useful in treating to begin with. Most of these numbers say that the treatment does not do anything statistically significant. The best looking product is Formic Acid, but it is only correlated with increased survival by 6%. It's hard for me to see that a 6% increase justifies the cost and time it takes to treat. One thing treating does do is make for more consistent results.

On the other hand, many of us have experienced the 'going cold turkey' paradigm, both personally and vicariously. It must be noted that there is a big difference between going cold turkey and being cold turkey. So it may be that these numbers are more due to avoided losses from the switching process than differences in management. It's kind of like a tax on not changing.

Just a few thoughts.

Take the survey, get your information in there for this year's results. This information is helpful for all beekeepers.
 
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#65 ·
We had a whole Thread arguing about what defines the term ommercial beekeeper and another arguing about whether there were any or very many TreatmentFree Commercial Beekeepers. You may have heard the old saying that if you ask 10 beekeepers a question you will get 11 answers? Well, to answer your question, in my opinion, it takes more than simply doing business w/ your bees. The majority of your income should be made thru beekeeping. It's what you do for a living. The American Beekeepers Federation considers 300 colonies as the number which puts one in the Commercial Category for dues paying members. Many people will say 500 plus. Someone w/ 20 hives, selling honey, selling nucs, and selling queens is not, imo, a commercial beekeeper. Doesn't mean you aren't a beekeeper.
 
#67 ·
Thanks for the link, Barry. Perhaps it should be in the glossary next to "Commercial Beekeeper". :)

In further hindsight, perhaps my question would have been more accurate if I'd asked what the group that put out the survey considered "commercial" for their purposes.

Mark, I don't have any dogs in that fight, just curiosity. Part of my thoughts on it had to do with the idea of being a professional--once you start getting paid for something you go from being amateur to professional kind of thing, but I recognized that definition wasn't a good fit. In the end it's probably more about semantics and opinion than anything else after a somewhat vague point when so many different factors can be cited and weighted differently depending upon the point of view.

Cheers,
Tom
 
#68 ·
Tom, We are okay. No problems. In beekeeping there are terms which we use that mean things to those whose avocation is beekeeping. I hope I don't seem to be talking down to you. I don't mean to. We have a certain understanding of what the terms "hobbyist" (or small scale), "sideliner", and "commercial" beekeeper means. There probably is a "Dictionary of Beekeeping Terms" out there somewhere, maybe on beesource itself, but mostly it's an understanding. Some people may say to people outside of beekeeping circles that they are a Professional Beekeeper, but I haven't heard that term amongst beekeepers. Welcome to beesource. I hope you stick around.
 
#70 ·
I'm disappointed that it is the middle of July and there is still no final report from Bee Informed. The only thing they seem to have posted are the preliminary results from back in early May. It may be silly of me, but I was kinda hoping to use the results to help point me in the right direction for my winter planning.

:scratch:

Rusty
 
#72 · (Edited)
Thanks to last year's survey, I 'll be using upper entrances for winter. Thanks to last year's survey, I didn't bother experimenting with small cell or FGMO. Thanks to last year's survey, I changed my approach to SHB. Saved some time and resources.

Rusty

edited to add: I think the biggest impact for me was seeing how little difference y'get from using or not using options that have set off absolute firestorms on these boards between the various factions. Everything seems to work or not work about equally. That was very freeing for me. It allowed me to just go with my own gut on most stuff, knowing that my choices wouldn't be any better or any worse than anybody elses. LOLOL
 
#75 ·
Thanks to last year's survey, I 'll be using upper entrances for winter. Thanks to last year's survey, I didn't bother experimenting with small cell or FGMO. Thanks to last year's survey, I changed my approach to SHB. Saved some time and resources.

Rusty
I guess I better take a look at that survey. I didn't know there was anything about upper entrances and wintering, small cell, FGMO and how to handle SHB.
 
#73 ·
I found the surveys very interesting too. You do have to bear in mind that even though commercial beekeepers have the largest representation in the survey, the commercial guys who actually responded are a very small minority of the commercial industry.

But that said, I took great reassurance from the fact that of the respondents, those who treated their hives didn't have significantly different survival rates from those who did no treatment. This was a welcome bit of information to me, because you hear, over and over on forums like this, that if you don't treat, you are an evil bee abuser who doesn't care if his bees live or die.

I think it's human nature to want to do something when things go wrong, and sometimes, we may be doing things that actually make matters worse than they would be if we did nothing. There's certainly plenty of examples of such mistakes from the past... Theodoric of York comes to mind in that regard.

Anyway, any statistician would tell you that the survey is fundamentally flawed. Still, some data is better than no data, and there is data to be mined from the survey results.
 
#74 ·
for those who took the survey, you may recall that a lot of management option questions offered the response of 'i'd rather not say'.

answers like this or not wanting to be surveyed at all for a similar reason is why the results have to be viewed as biased or at least not necessarily representative of the universe of managed bees.

still, the trends that are borne out are somewhat helpful.
 
#85 ·
It was actually, just had to read the data properly, through an unbiased lens. This year they have seen how it was misinterpreted & written it harder to misunderstand, or cherry pick to suit an agenda.

Where's Bispham? He's all over the forum like a rash, then mentions a few mite issues, next thing poof, he's gone, vanished! Collecting new swarms I guess to maintain numbers.
 
#87 ·
I meant that there was a significant difference last year, but it was true in some prior years that the difference was less. I always found it odd that there was so little difference in prior years, because I assumed that most non-treaters were relative novices, and thus more likely to lose their bees, for other reasons.

So far my problems have been too many bees, and hives that were excessively strong for the backyard, but I'm sure I'll have different results by fall.

My North Country bees had 100% survival, despite the ferocious winter. But honesty compels me to admit that I only left one hive up there. Still, I was astonished that it survived, because it was a little light in October, and I failed to close down the entrance. No wrapping or insulation, and yet it was brooding up nicely in April.

I'm taking a half-dozen home-made nucs north to NY in a few days. It's nice not having to buy bees.
 
#88 ·
Ray there has always been a difference, as one would expect, despite what has been said on Beesource.

It has been stated on the likes of Beesource that there is no difference, however that has been backed up by spin and carefully cherry picked and massaged data, or not backed up at all.

The previous survey, which some claimed showed no difference, when read properly showed a 30% difference and because of all the dishonesty I demonstrated that one time. None of the people who had been using data in a misleading manner responded.

This is all the more remarkable considering the stressors commercial hives are subjected to that treatment free, stationary, intensively cared for, hobby hives, are not subjected to.

Anyhow congrats on having all but one of your hives survive.

Where's Bispham? Kinda quiet around here lately.
 
#90 ·
My losses this past winter were actually a bit higher than the winter before but more significantly hive populations were down. Why? There is no doubt in my mind that it's because I got a bit behind on our treatment plan. My hives got a single thymol treatment which I chose to delay because of a late heat wave. We didn't do any oxalic treating because it got too late on us to do it up north. Late winter/early spring sampling was showing 2 to 3% infestations at a time of year when it should be difficult to find a mite. This spring we changed course and opted for a single treatment of either oxalic or Hopguard at the 3 week window post queen removal in our spring nucing and saw a good mite knockdown. Bees look awesome right now, well see how they look 4 months from now.
 
#92 ·
#94 ·
You have to love how NBC's report attempts to balance Dr. Lu's bee poisoning experiment involving 24 hives against the real world experiences of about 3,800 respondents operating well over a half million hives. Furthermore the bee informed survey can't begin to determine whether treatments were timely or effective only that they were administered. Ideal treatment windows are often quite narrow.
 
#96 ·
Furthermore the bee informed survey can't begin to determine whether treatments were timely or effective only that they were administered. Ideal treatment windows are often quite narrow.
The nail on the head.
They offered a twelve month window on treatments....then without regard for timing....weighed them all equally. If they refine their data collection a bit more.... they just might produce something meaningful.
 
#95 ·
Quote - "The survey found that bee mortality was much lower for beekeepers who carefully treated their hives to control the mites".

I have highlighted carefully, because I think this is one of the main weaknesses in the survey. The treatment free participants, who seem to be the majority, avoid treating if at all possible. It is only when they see a hive badly infested with mites and in obvious distress, that they may reluctantly decide to treat it. However going by the treads I've seen with people talking about this, very often the hive is too far gone & dies out completely not long after treatment is applied.

Then on the survey, this hive is entered as one that was treated, but died anyway. But what really killed the hive, was not being treated, early enough.

However, despite these types of discrepancies, IMO the survey is being done as well as it could be, working with a diverse group of people using many methods and having many experience levels, and not being able to fully investigate each case, it melds the whole thing into a workable result.
 
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