Wicked lot of moisture.

[Acebird]

Jeff, most moisture conditions are not in the dead of winter. It happens in the fall and spring when the conditions are right. The conditions you have allow your hives to make it through without a problem. Not everyone will have that luxury. What you don't know is would you have had 26 out of 26 make it through this winter if you did not use the chip bed?

In this instance I am going to side with the commercial operators moving thousands of hives all over the country and not using the chip bed method of overwintering. In my line of reasoning it has zero value. You obviously feel completely different otherwise you wouldn't do it. That's OK. Do what you like.

John would like to know why it didn't work for him. I gave my reasoning what is yours?

[John C]

As far as I can tell, it's because I didn't have it vented enough. After I propped the outer up more, it was dried up by the next day. But now I'm concerned with there not being enough moisture. I would rather them be able to get water from within the hive if they need it to thin out honey, than to have to go hunting for. Even though there is a pond about 100' from house, which isn't far, getting water from within the hive, is even quicker.

[Jeff G]

Jeff, most moisture conditions are not in the dead of winter. It happens in the fall and spring when the conditions are right. The conditions you have allow your hives to make it through without a problem. Not everyone will have that luxury. What you don't know is would you have had 26 out of 26 make it through this winter if you did not use the chip bed?

RESPONSE: Your point about whether my hives made it due to the top is correct. The only reason I made it was to point out that moisture does not collect with this type of top at any time of year, fall, winter, or spring, and I have looked over multiple seasons. And if you don't think hive moisture conditions happen in the dead of winter, you are not correct, bees are giving off moisture at a constant rate in the hive. It is by far a bigger problem in the winter because of frosting on cold surfaces.

Acebird quote:
'In this instance I am going to side with the commercial operators moving thousands of hives all over the country and not using the chip bed method of overwintering. In my line of reasoning it has zero value. You obviously feel completely different otherwise you wouldn't do it. That's OK. Do what you like.'

RESPONSE: You can side with the commercial BHs but they won't do this much work, its a pain and too labor intensive. As small BKs we can afford the time. "In my line of reasoning your opinion has zero value" because it is based on what others are doing. Just because everyone is doing it is not a valid reason to not try something new and look in other directions. I don't know if this is the answer to winter moisture reduction but it seems to keep the hives dry and I will continue to refine and make it better.

Acebird OUOTE:
"John would like to know why it didn't work for him. I gave my reasoning what is yours?

RESPONSE: I have already given my response if you read the tread, you should read treads before responding.

[Beregondo]

John,
I did the something similar with my bees this winter, except that the material I used was chopped leaves, and I DID NOT make any vent passages of any kind through it "to let moisture escape".
That is very important to avoid getting a lot of condensation on the cover!
The result of what I did was that I had a 3" layer of leaves in the spring, dry on the bottom of the layer and very damp material in the top 1/4". The leaves on the very top had visible moisture.

This is why you had a wet cover, and why the top of my leaves were damp:
Warm air from the hive rises, carrying the moisture in it with it until it reaches something cold (like your top cover, or the cold air above the insulating layer of leaves in my hives).
Then the moisture condenses.
If there is ventilation to the outside where the moisture condenses, the moisture will evaporate into the cold DRY air fairly quickly, suffering moisture damage due to condensation. That’s why our attics are vented above the insulation on top of our home ceilings…to prevent our roof form getting wet like the underside of your covers. Cold air above an insulting layer is no biggie—the warm air is trapped underneath.

Unless you put vent holes through the corners of the insulating layer with sticks.

If you do that, the warm moist air bypasses the insulation, and rises right up to the cold underside of the cover above, and the moisture condenses. Without any ventilation ABOVE the insulting layer, the moisture accumulates. My top cover is propped up on one side with a couple of small 1/8” sticks to allow for that ventilation…but there are NO holes through the insulating layer of leaves to bypass the insulation.

I think if you cover the entire screen next year with a layer of shavings or chopped leaves about half a medium box thick, and allow some space above for the condensation on your cover to get out, you’ll find things much different next winter.

[Acebird]

That’s why our attics are vented above the insulation on top of our home ceilings…to prevent our roof form getting wet like the underside of your covers.

The vent in your roof is more for the damp warm weather not the bone dry winter. If you do not have a vapor barrier on the warm ceiling to prevent the moisture from going in the insulation you will have serious moisture problems in the insulation even if you have a powered ventilation fan in the roof. Trapping moisture in organic material (leaves, sawdust, or wood chips) and hoping you have enough ventilation to evaporate it is not a good idea in my opinion.

bees are giving off moisture at a constant rate in the hive.

Not even close to correct. The amount of moisture give off is a function of metabolic rate and population. No different than any other animal. (constantly changing)

Commercial beekeepers would use this method if it had a plus side. I am pretty sure of that.

[Beregondo]

The vent in your roof is more for the damp warm weather not the bone dry winter. If you do not have a vapor barrier on the warm ceiling to prevent the moisture from going in the insulation you will have serious moisture problems in the insulation even if you have a powered ventilation fan in the roof.

You're absolutely right that you will get moisture build up in insulation without a vapor barrier. This is exactly what I was describing when described condensation accumulating where the leaves I used for insulation meet the cold air in the top 1/4" or so.

Attic ventilation does save energy in the summer, and also saves your building envelope in the winter.
Even with a vapor barrier, an unvented attic will accumulate moisture.
I've worked enough years in carpentry to have repaired my fair share of rot caused by it.
This is elementary building science and covered in entry level certification courses.

Trapping moisture in organic material (leaves, sawdust, or wood chips) and hoping you have enough ventilation to evaporate it is not a good idea in my opinion.

If it were a problem, then it would likely have shown up at some time since it's adoption by Abbe Warre in the 19th century.
What we have been describing is a quilt box, successfully used by Warre hive enthusiasts for many decades.

Commercial beekeepers would use this method if it had a plus side. I am pretty sure of that.

Commercial beekeepers and hobbyists have different goals, and often what is excellent for the one is at odds with the goals of the other.
This is an example. It is much faster to set foam insulation on top of a cover to get the condensation to form on the [colder] walls instead of the top than it is to invest the labor in the (in the opinion of many) healthier practice of using a quilt box.

Commercial guys primary aim is to make money. They'll compromise bee health to do it ( e.g. stressing bees by taking them cross country to almond groves, mixing them with bees from all over and risking picking parasites /disease from infected bees while there...not bad, just necessary evil in the business)

Hobbyists will take time to do things for the benefit of the bees commercial guys simply don't have time for because of scale.

Enjoy your bees. Have fun.

[Jeff G]

Well said Beregondo!

[Acebird]

Attic ventilation does save energy in the summer, and also saves your building envelope in the winter.

If you believe an attic is ventilated for the winter season you lack the science for when the problem exist. The amount of ventilation you need in Alaska is minuscule compared to what you need in Florida. The heated air in the attic holds much more moisture then colder air does. Most attics are bone dry in the winter. Check it out if you are interested in the science.
Adding moisture to organic material is far from a healthy environment. That is part of my objection. If you want to make a winter blanket use a vapor barrier on the warm side (facing the bees) to prevent moisture going into the wood chips. The more moist the chips are the lower the R value will be for insulation purposes. You should have picked that up in your certification classes.

[BeeCurious]

I have seen mini icicles hanging from roofing nails in an attic. Had it been ventilated, the moisture from a kerosene heater could have exited the structure.

I don't know how that fits with the "bone dry" high science scenario ...

[John C]

So, how 'bout them Red Sox?

[Jeff G]

John, you made me smile and laugh. This tread reminds me of one on the weight of honey in a pint jar. In true beekeeper fasion it took 28 post for everyone not to agree.

[the kid]

Acebird ,,,, if thats the way you think a ventilated attic works ,,, and Most attics are bone dry in the winter. next winter you go up in your attic ,, and PLUG all the vents ,, and come spring go check it out ..

[Beregondo]

If you believe an attic is ventilated for the winter season you lack the science for when the problem exist. The amount of ventilation you need in Alaska is minuscule compared to what you need in Florida. The heated air in the attic holds much more moisture then colder air does. Most attics are bone dry in the winter. Check it out if you are interested in the science.
Adding moisture to organic material is far from a healthy environment. That is part of my objection. If you want to make a winter blanket use a vapor barrier on the warm side (facing the bees) to prevent moisture going into the wood chips. The more moist the chips are the lower the R value will be for insulation purposes. You should have picked that up in your certification classes.

You are absolutely right.

I am the most ignorant of fools.

I defer to your infinite wisdom and perennial right-ness

[whiskers]

Here is an interesting article-
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...jzDJLRmApx-QeA
It involves a warm damp thing (a person), a permeable insulating layer (a sleeping bag), and cold (-30 C or roughly -20 F). If you replace the person with some bees, the sleeping bag with a box of sawdust, and cold with, well cold is just cold. In a stable situation water vapour will diffuse through the insulation until it reaches a layer cold enough to freeze but as long as it remains frozen and undisturbed the insulation retains some of its value.

From here my analysis- If adequate ventilation is provided on the cold side the ice crystals will evaporate slowly. If the cold side is warmed the ice will melt and the insulation may become wet. Without ventilation on the outside it will remain wet (the situation in the original post). With ventilation (as subsequently provided by the original poster) the insulation will dry as the ice melts and the insulation will probably never become saturated.
Bill

[Acebird]

The attic in the house I live in has one vent about 6" diameter right in the middle of the roof and no soffit vents. Bone dry in the winter because it has a vapor barrier and solid plaster walls/ceilings. In the spring, summer and fall we must open up the windows in the gable ends. If you have an attic that has icicles on the nails of the roof it could happen for two reasons; 1 there is a bathroom vent that goes into the attic and not outside and or, 2 there is no vapor barrier. Adding vents only in this situation will only make the ice form closer to the warm wall. It won't get rid of the ice. The ice will form somewhere between the warm surface and the cold air where you can't see it. Dew Points are forever changing so the exact point where the moisture turns to ice will change also. If you have frost or ice on the nails of your roof the likelihood is you have rain in the spring and fall and you didn't notice it until you saw the frost.

[BeeCurious]

Acebird,

You missed the part were I mentioned a kerosene heater.

Oh, and it wasn't my house...

If you get rid of the humidity there isn't any ice....

[the kid]

Acebird ,,,,, talk to a building inspector in your town ,,, he will tell you about venting ..

[John C]

John, you made me smile and laugh.

Good, I hope some others did also. Debate is healthy, but sometimes it seems to border on personal attack
So no one ended up agreeing on the pint weight? I'll have to go search that one out. Sounds like some interesting read. lol

[Acebird]

If you get rid of the humidity there isn't any ice....

Now you are getting the idea except that a kerosene heater is going to ad moisture. Water is a byproduct of combustion and a kerosene heater will put that moisture in the room, (no exhaust to the outside). Put one of those in a new house and you will steam up the windows. That tells you that the house is tight and you could kill yourself if you don't ventilate the room. I not a fan of kerosene heaters either. Too many people getting asphyxiated when they became popular during the oil embargo.

[BeeCurious]

Your a FunnyBird Ace, you begin to agree with others but you twist things around to suggest that the majority was off track.