Mite Counts and killing bees

[Andrew Dewey]

I listened to a presentation by Maine State Apiarist Tony Jadczak last night where he observed that most bee keepers, both hobby and commercial, don't like doing mite tests where the bees get killed and consequently don't do much if any testing. Granted there are non lethal ways of testing mite load (sticky board counts, sugar roll) but they can be less than accurate - with the sugar shake especially you can get false negatives. So I'm wondering what methods people use to gauge mite load and treatment effectiveness? Or do they treat because they "know" they have a problem and trust that the treatment worked? What should be recommended to new beekeepers? At times of year when I judge the bee population can stand it I use an alcohol wash and that is what I typically describe to new beekeepers. But I question the efficacy of recommending a mite counting strategy that is not getting used. Are sticky boards, sugar roll, etc better than doing nothing?

[Michael Bush]

I'm not entirely against mite counts but I would never kill bees to count mites. What is the point of killing them? I consider a sugar roll or a sticky board or even just a board to get natural drop, sufficient to assess the situation. But when I reached the point that I usually couldn't find any to count, I quit. Here are some statements by others on mite counts... more from the point of view of breeding selection, but I think there is some truth here that is applicable to counts in general...

"...all of these programs, as far as I know, are dependent on countless hours of peering into microscopes and counting mites on hundreds or thousands of sticky boards. Unless this is your favorite leisure time activity, it's beyond the means of most of us who make all our living from bees"--Kirk Webster

"I consider counting mites as a way of evaluating Varroa resistance to be fraught with all sorts of shortcomings and difficulties. It's very time consuming and hence the size of the apiary, the number of colonies tested, the gene pool, and the income available all start to shrink. It's also very easy for the results to be skewed by mites migrating from other colonies or bee yards. And it doesn't show which colonies are more resistant to secondary infections-a trait I consider very important.

"Other valuable traits can be lost by focusing too much time and energy on just one or two parameters. I also don't enjoy employing people to do work I'm not willing to do myself. And let's face it- this is a boring job. I'd rather spend that time propagating more colonies from untreated bees, and test them for survival and performance in the real world. I've always maintained that for a commercial beekeeper to profitably breed his or her own stock, the work of testing must somehow be built into the income-producing apiary work."--Kirk Webster

"The biggest mistake of all is to continue viewing mites and other “pests” as enemies that must be destroyed, instead of allies and teachers that are trying to show us a path to a better future...All the boring and soul-destroying work of counting mites on sticky boards, killing brood with liquid nitrogen, watching bees groom each other, and measuring brood hormone levels—all done in thousands of replications—will someday be seen as a colossal waste of time when we finally learn to let the Varroa mites do these things for us."--Kirk Webster

"It's not about mite counts, it's about survival"--Dann Purvis

[Mike Gillmore]

Are sticky boards, sugar roll, etc better than doing nothing?

Personally, I think so. Particularly for new beekeepers. Their colonies could be overrun with mites right under their noses and they would not even know it until it was too late. I don't know how many times I've read a post from a new beek saying that they just "saw" a mite on a bee in their hive and are wondering if they should treat.

I'm not big on religiously counting mites. I would love to, but I just don't have the time to do it. I use a sticky board occasionally throughout the year to monitor natural mite fall, and I know it's accuracy is questionably but it usually gives me an indication that there is a problem brewing before it gets out of hand. It also allows me to clearly see the effectiveness of treatment if used. It's not a perfect test to be sure, but it can at least can give an indication of what may be happening in the colony.

I think it's mandatory that new beekeepers at the very minimum do sticky board tests periodically throughout the year to monitor their colonies. Additional tests with more accuracy are better, but not everyone has the time or will to perform them. That's just the way it is.

[Solomon Parker]

I prefer the doing nothing option. Mite counts are to a certain extent arbitrary. Hives die without mites and hives live with huge mite loads. Survival is the only test I'm concerned with. But I don't treat so that eliminates a variable.

[beemandan]

"It's not about mite counts, it's about survival"--Dann Purvis

I have a lot of respect for Dann Purvis. And I agree, it isn't about mite counts but...survival is only one consideration. A necessary one to be sure. A heavily parasitized colony may survive but can be unproductive by other measures.
Any formal testing, in my opinion, is better than not testing at all. How often do we read new beekeepers asking about why their hives failed or their bees disappeared? Without any testing, they are blind to the single greatest threat to their bees.
Surely a mite drop onto a sticky sheet or a sugar roll can't be too great an undertaking, can it? If a new beekeeper is unwilling to do even that, they are likely to fail, in my opinion.

[honeyshack]

i regularly test for mites. Reasons:
-To see where the hives are at
-To see if the treatments worked
-To try and figure out why a specific hive is not making the grade

I test 15% of each yard, minimum 2x a year, mostly 3.
Each test, I take about 1/3- 1/2 a cup of bees (at most 300 bees, no queen). Each yard consists of 25-40 hives.
I test from a couple from each of the following, weak, strong, medium, in one test to get a good cross reference. When i restest, I will take from different hives. Any hive again found to not be performing, will get tested on it's own.

During the flow, I use my scratching fork to see if the mites are starting to climb by pulling out capped drone brood and checking the cells and the backs of the drones.

For me, sticky boards are time consuming in the making, the cost, and going back in 2 days to get them out and then counting in each board
The alcohol was is done in the yard the same time as working the bees, results settle while finishing up in the yard and then check when I get home. So, instead of retrieving 40 boards and counting, I get 8 test samples and look.

My point, we do what we have to do inorder to figure out where are our hives are at, diagnose what problems they may face, and have a frame of reference to diagnose what happened later on down the road.

If i could I would take my bee in the cattle trailer take her to the vet, or pay my vet mileage to have her draw blood, take fecal samples to do tests if she gets sick. Somehow, I do not think they make a needle and syringe small enough to do the job. So I do what needs to be done to keep the bees, livestock if you will, alive and have a frame of reference if they do get sick and die

The point of testing is to establish references so that when a hive succums to diseases, pests, viruses due to pests, or the hive is not thriving, we can make an accurate diagnosing and change where we need to change inorder to minimize losses.

PS...if one sees a mite on the back of a bee, it is like rats, see one expect many more

[sqkcrk]

What does any kind of mite counting tell you about mite loads across a commercial operation. Commercial beekeepers don't have the time, money, and man power to check every hive. If I checked 10% of my hives, by ether roll, I would have an idea of what the mite counts were in those 50 hives, but what would that tell me about the other 450?

I guess doing mite checks after a treatment would tell me whether the material used was effective or not, but, if it was only partially effective I don't know if I would apply something else right away or not. It would depend on the time of year, I guess.

[honeyshack]

What does any kind of mite counting tell you about mite loads across a commercial operation. Commercial beekeepers don't have the time, money, and man power to check every hive. If I checked 10% of my hives, by ether roll, I would have an idea of what the mite counts were in those 50 hives, but what would that tell me about the other 450?

That is why it is a cross sample of weak and strong. It give you an idea if there is a problem. It is also why when testing again, test others.
That said, a hive, and we all have a constantly poor hive, should have it's own test if it continues to lag behind the rest.
Once we gain experience by testing the hives, and the experience of seeing what happens to that hive or those hives, the numbers become easier to 'read' especially when they are recorded for future consulting

[sqkcrk]

I would maintain that once one gets to a certain hive count individual colonies can't be attended to or kept track of, they have to be dealt w/ then and there. Weak colonies in my operation get looked at to try to determine what's going on w/ them and then to do something w/ them right then. Such as throwing them up on a stronger colony.

[LeonardS]

Is the powdered sugar dusting method a good approach for a new beekeeper? I try to use very few chemicals in my garden and would prefer to do the same when I get my bees.

[Mbeck]

Once we gain experience by testing the hives, and the experience of seeing what happens to that hive or those hives, the numbers become easier to 'read' especially when they are recorded for future consulting

Interesting thread
I do test by killing bees.

Honeyshacks quote above get to the bottom of the issue for me.
I don't have the experience to test in a consistent,meaningful way and draw meaniful
conclusions. Having information often compels us to act on it ( at least I feel this way).
I'm struggling to develop productive management habits. There is much information to be gathered by testing but I'm unsure if that information gathering is a productive use of my time? Will the hours I spend testing,counting and tracking, provide me the information I need to make better decisions and have healthier, more productive bees? I suppose the answer all comes down to keeping style and how I process that information and apply it.
Maybe my time would be better spent treating everything and giving all hives as many brood breaks as possible,splitting etc. Maybe I should focus on better queens and drone management. Maybe a little of everything.

I'm determined to learn something either way. I just pray my lessons aren't too expensive.

[honeyshack]

Here are some of the areas testing becomes helpful
Short term...
Mite levels and how they will impact the impending honey flow
Mite levels and how they will impact spring brood rearing so that there is enough healthy foragers for the honey flow. Remember, foragers do not just happen. First they emerge, then they grow and gain strength and then they move up in the order of the hive. Then they are foragers and then die.
Mite levels and how they will impact fall healthy bees and winter survival

Long term...
1. Hive comes out of winter poor, or dies, food in the hive around the cluster.
2. Hive comes out of winter poor, makes it to the flow, does a dismal or less than stellar in honey production. Bee production is down, few DWV, and they seem to not keep a queen very well
3. Hive seems to pick up in the spring after a poor doing in the winter survival. Honey production is down compared to the rest of the hives and fall bees seem slow and sluggish. Gathering honey and pollen for winter stores seems to be not as good as other hives. They seem to need more help in the way of feed and they themselves do not appear to have "fat on the back". Some of the emerged larva are stuck mid way.
4. Going into the second winter, they seem fine but not great. Ample stores, thin bees, not fat. Not alot of late summer or early fall rearing happening. Cluster dies by January during a cold snap with bees only an inch from good food.

So how does this apply to mite testing?

By logging in the mite levels at certain times of the year, see in the window of the now in a hive. But we can also look long term and see where these levels go. We know that by 4%, brood damage occurs. We know that nosema is a stressor disease. We also know that weak bees have a harder time making it into winter and into spring in a good enough cluster to call viable.
All things considered, mite testing allows us to go back and see the results of poor mite control, mite control which was not applied in a timely fashion. It gives us a way to diagnose a dead hive because we can see the paper trail in black and white or white and blue. Having it infront of you staring you in the face shows us where we went wrong and how we can change it.

Testing mites shows us if our treatments worked. Especially the "softer chemicals" Why the softer? cause they leave more live mites behind and if a hive is sorely infested, it might take two treatments to knock them back. Knock them back...yes, but if they die in the following winter or later, we could deduce that the mites had vectored in viruses which put the hive into a slow painful death, with nosema stressing out the gut.

Seeing that paper trail in black and white just gob smacks us in the face. It really does. It opens our eyes to where we failed or where we could do better. It shows us how our management techniques are working or not working.
Think of it like a budget. We without a budget tell ourselves we are not doing alot of extra spending on frivilous stuff. Nah, we are good. Get it down on paper what we spend and track for a few months and what an eye openner. Stuns us on what we actually do with our money. Same idea with mite testing. With testing comes learning. With learning comes experience. With experience comes the know how to put that learning to the test and see where it takes us.

[Andrew Dewey]

Nice post Honeyshack - how do you test and do you encourage new beekeepers to use your testing protocol?

[Paul McCarty]

Been at this a couple of years now and so far no problems, but I am no expert. All I do for a test is watch what falls through the screens on the hives I have that have screens. However, Spring and Fall I smoke heavily with desert Juniper foliage and break the brood cycles every so often. I have had more problems with freezing weather, robbing, and bears so far.

[honeyshack]

How do i test?
In the beginning i used sticky boards. But then I had not so many hives. Once i got to over 100 I found it hard to keep up with the sticky boards. Bees were not my only demand. Cows, field work and bus driving as well as honey and candle sales kept me busy. Once i got use to the alcohol wash method I was keener on it. Quick and simple and no returning to the yards. I also learned to use my scratching fork to keep an eye on the hives during the flow. This is a quick and easy method between actual testing.
Here in Manitoba, from what i have learned, which is very little, the sticky test and alcohol wash is more prominent than other ways. We have also been told that windshield washer fluid rated for -30 works well. With it being blue, easy to see the mites in the bottom of the jar. One day I had run out of alcohol. I asked my husband who usually keeps extra windshield washer in the truck, if he had any extra. His answer was no. Thinking again for a moment and to not be deterred from my task, I popped the hood, jumped on the bumper, pulled the hose from the reservoir and got what i needed. Too my husband's amazement
As for encouraging new beekeepers to test, always.

[StevenG]

When I resumed beekeeping in 2006 after much research, I bought "treatment free" or "resistant" bees from a breeder who never treated. I've grown from 2 to 30 hives, never have treated, never have done mite counts, and never will do both. There are others on this forum who have done likewise, and are having success. The two hives I lost over this past winter (knocking me from 32 to 30) were queen/starvation issues.
Regards,
Steven

[beemandan]

When I resumed beekeeping in 2006 after much research, I bought "treatment free" or "resistant" bees from a breeder who never treated. I've grown from 2 to 30 hives, never have treated, never have done mite counts, and never will do both

Do you believe that the advice you’re implying for a brand new beekeeper is sound? You were an experienced beekeeper when you restarted in 2006. You already understood the issues. You understood the need to seek specially bred queens….after ‘much research’.You obviously knew enough to make splits successfully and interrupt brood rearing.

My concern always is for the totally new beekeeper reading these threads….without a solid understanding of the issues.
What I’d ask is, are there any ‘new’ beekeepers who started, for their first time ever, hives of bees….let’s say, three years ago, who haven’t tested or treated and still have those colonies of bees and they are thriving?
And, are there any ‘new’ beekeepers who started their first hives three years ago…and all the same stuff…and have lost all or most?
I think that suggesting the path of ignoring the issue of varroa for first time beekeepers is a recipe for failure and the loss of another potentially good beekeeper.

[Solomon Parker]

....I started nine years ago as a newbee, back when there were even fewer sources of treatment-free bees. There wasn't a Purvis or BWeaver or Parker Farms back then where I could even buy queens much less packages or nucs.

[honeyshack]

...are there any ‘new’ beekeepers who started their first hives three years ago…and all the same stuff…and have lost all or most?
I think that suggesting the path of ignoring the issue of varroa for first time beekeepers is a recipe for failure and the loss of another potentially good beekeeper.

I think this sums up the entire thread!

Learn first then divide and conquer. Can not run without understanding how to walk.

[Mike Gillmore]

honeyshack and beemandan, I like your approach to this topic.

It is encouraging to hear wonderful success stories as with StevenG and Sol. But I would expect that for every treatment free success there are a hundred who failed using the exact same strategy. There are just too many variables.

There is nothing more discouraging than to watch your entire yard collapse before your eyes, especially for the new beekeeper. All of the planning, effort, and expectations washed away. It's very difficult to recover from that kind of disappointment.

I completely agree with honeyshack. A new beek should learn to monitor mites, understand them, and learn how to keep them under control. Once that level of successful management is attained, and if one desires to try treatment free, at least they have a solid benchmark to measure their future successes from.