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Thread: Queen excluders

  1. #101
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    Default Re: Queen excluders

    Also, of course, there is the added benefit, with the conjunction of upper entrance use, of losing fewer colonies to predation by nocturnal insect-eating creatures, be they skunks, toads, or whatever loves eating our bees. There are enough enemies our bees have to deal with, at least we can hinder some of them.
    Last edited by Joseph Clemens; 12-31-2013 at 02:35 PM.
    48 years - 50 hives - TF
    Joseph Clemens -- Website Under Constructioni

  2. #102
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    Default Re: Queen excluders

    I'm embarrassed, that I had been avoiding queen excluders (honey excluders), for several decades, but hadn't considered the logic of providing colonies main entrances, above the excluder, as is described in the Jerry Hayes study. It made me feel a little, "behind the eight-ball", but I was able to get over it, try the alternate configuration, and soon had excellent success using them, and fewer problems with insectivores eating my hives into oblivion.
    Last edited by Joseph Clemens; 12-31-2013 at 02:52 PM.
    48 years - 50 hives - TF
    Joseph Clemens -- Website Under Constructioni

  3. #103
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    Default Re: Queen excluders

    I did a little experiment based on the Jerry Hayes study too, the few hives that I tried upper entrances on this year all outproduced hives with bottom only entrances. I don't think it was a coincidence.

  4. #104
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    Default Re: Queen excluders

    Post 93
    He doesn't depend on bees for a living as far as I know, he has a day job.
    That is my point. There is an overwhelming majority here on beesource looking for information that don't make a living on bees. Using a QE requires work, knowledge and attention to detail. You don't just throw it on and walk away.

    Now for the other comments about QE's in conjunction with upper entrances. This proves that QE's are a restriction and do lower yields if not used in conjunction with an upper entrance. The one negative about upper entrances is that all the foragers will now come in the top of the hive when you open it and for some newbies this could be intimidating.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  5. #105
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    Default Re: Queen excluders

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Using a QE requires work, knowledge and attention to detail.
    So does inspecting a hive, determining the condition of a colony, finding a queen, evaluating whether a flow is happening, splitting a hive, harvesting honey, selling bees, raising queens, building equipment, or .... virtually all other aspects of beekeeping.




    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  6. #106
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    Default Re: Queen excluders

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    So does inspecting a hive, determining the condition of a colony, finding a queen, evaluating whether a flow is happening, splitting a hive, harvesting honey, selling bees, raising queens, building equipment, or .... virtually all other aspects of beekeeping.
    You don't need to find a queen, evaluate whether a flow is happening, sell bees, raise queens, build equipment, and splitting a hive is a no brainer so I disagree.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  7. #107
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    Default Re: Queen excluders

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Using a QE requires work, knowledge and attention to detail. You don't just throw it on and walk away.
    I have used queen excluders mostly for when I wanted to prepare frames for use in nucs or queen castles.

    I have never considered using a QE as "work". Their use, in my opinion, is one of the least laborious beekeeping tasks.
    BeeCurious
    5 hives and 8 nucs................... Trying to think inside the box...

  8. #108
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    Default Re: Queen excluders

    Quote Originally Posted by BeeCurious View Post
    I have never considered using a QE as "work". Their use, in my opinion, is one of the least laborious beekeeping tasks.
    It can be but if you stick with convention and only have a bottom entrance you are going to want to pull that excluder out after you (the bees) have established a honey cap. You are going to want to put it back in when the flow tapers off and the box on top is not filled with honey. So now you are picking off boxes of honey to get the QE back in. It can be more work. How do you make sure they are not backfilling? More inspections.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  9. #109
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    Default Re: Queen excluders

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Now for the other comments about QE's in conjunction with upper entrances. This proves that QE's are a restriction and do lower yields if not used in conjunction with an upper entrance. The one negative about upper entrances is that all the foragers will now come in the top of the hive when you open it and for some newbies this could be intimidating.
    My personal experiment using upper entrances combined with QE showed better honey production in a side by side comparison with hives using bottom entrances and QE. But I wouldn't want to make a blanket statement and say that this same outcome should be expected in all hives with the same setup, beekeeping is just too diverse to make that claim. Its like comparing apples to oranges.

  10. #110
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    Default Re: Queen excluders

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Post 93 Now for the other comments about QE's in conjunction with upper entrances. This proves that QE's are a restriction and do lower yields if not used in conjunction with an upper entrance.
    Brian,
    I respectfully disagree, the only way you could know this for sure would be to do a comparative study of 2 hives of similar strength, both with top entrances but only one hive would have an excluder.

    Your conclusion could be based on the fact that upper entrances allow bees quicker access to the storage area and possibly has nothing to do with a queen excluder.
    Last edited by WWW; 01-01-2014 at 08:53 AM.
    Bill...in Southeast Ohio Zone 6A

  11. #111
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    Default Re: Queen excluders

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    You don't need to find a queen, evaluate whether a flow is happening, sell bees, raise queens, build equipment, and splitting a hive is a no brainer so I disagree.
    You can just let them go until they die also.
    Beekeeper 15 years.....6 hives.......T (oav)

  12. #112
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    Default Re: Queen excluders

    Quote Originally Posted by WWW View Post
    Your conclusion could be based on the fact that upper entrances allow bees quicker access to the storage area and has nothing to do with a queen excluder.
    Absolutely! I willing to look at the data however it is presented. How do you explain more yield simply by using a QE?

    How about this? Where is the QE placed and at what time? Top of the first deep, the second deep, the third deep, a deep and a medium, two deeps and a medium, yada, yada, yada. The QE by design is meant to restrict the queen which is a force against nature. When ever there is a force against nature the outcome is not so predictable.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  13. #113
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    Default Re: Queen excluders

    WWW, I assume you are talking about two hives, neither of which have a bottom entrance, only top entrances, and only one hive has the excluder, just wanted to clarify that? That being the case, I didn't try that kind of comparison myself, but I would say with everything else being equal, the hive without the excluder will end up with the queen laying in the supers at some point, thereby lowering honey production in that hive compared to the other one. Again, just my opinion based on my experiences.

  14. #114
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    Default Re: Queen excluders

    Quote Originally Posted by Harvey Wray View Post
    You can just let them go until they die also.
    They will all die no matter what you do. There are even respected beekeepers that kill all the bees to get more honey yield. That is also an option. Neither of which has anything to do with an excluder.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  15. #115
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    Default Re: Queen excluders

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    The QE by design is meant to restrict the queen which is a force against nature. When ever there is a force against nature the outcome is not so predictable.
    OK, I'll bite.

    What outcome is more predictable by NOT using an excluder?


    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  16. #116
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    Default Re: Queen excluders

    I wish Hayes would have tested a third configuration, one with both an entrance above the QU and the standard lower entrance and not just a drone escape hole. Anyone ever try that?

  17. #117
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    Default Re: Queen excluders

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    They will all die no matter what you do. There are even respected beekeepers that kill all the bees to get more honey yield. That is also an option. Neither of which has anything to do with an excluder.
    Actually, some of those beekeepers that kill their bees use excluders, and by using them correctly they have increased their honey yield up till the day they kill their bees, so that their honey harvest can be directly tied to them using the excluders. Face it, for some beekeepers, using an excluder results in an increase in honey production (HoneyHouseholder), and for some it will decrease it.

  18. #118
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    Default Re: Queen excluders

    Quote Originally Posted by jmgi View Post
    the hive without the excluder will end up with the queen laying in the supers at some point,
    Why? If you take a read from MB's post it says you did something wrong. So it is OK to do something wrong when you are not using an excluder but it is not OK to do something wrong when you are using an excluder.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  19. #119
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    Default Re: Queen excluders

    Quote Originally Posted by jmgi View Post
    Face it, for some beekeepers, using an excluder results in an increase in honey production (HoneyHouseholder), and for some it will decrease it.
    Now we are on the same wavelength.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  20. #120
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    Default Re: Queen excluders

    jmgi,
    I was thinking of bottom and top entrance on both hives. To clarify my comment I was pointing out that to make definitive statements as to what an excluder will or will not do one really needs to do an actual study to see if there assessments are correct.

    Brian,
    I suppose you could deem the excluder a force against nature but my question would be; To what extent? As jmgi has pointed out, your honey yields will improve but only if the excluder restricts the queen as well and that would be a predictable outcome. How much of a force against nature are we talking about if the queen is allowed to move freely in a double deep brood box? She likely has all the room she needs to lay in while the excluder above keeps her from wondering into the honey supers.
    Bill...in Southeast Ohio Zone 6A

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