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Update on narrow frames from Kelley

18K views 50 replies 14 participants last post by  Routt Bee 
#1 ·
#2 ·
Thanks for the heads up. When ordering frames from Kelley's back in Oct., I asked about narrow frames and was told they could make them but there would be an additional charge and a delay in delivery. I wouldn't have minded paying a little extra at the time because I was planning to take delivery (free of charge) at the Tennessee Beekeepers Assoc. convention in late Oct. Unfortunately, they couldn't fill the special order in time for the convention so I ended up taking their standard foundationless frames. Glad to read they are considering adding the 1.25 frames to the catalog, and have sent them an email stating so. Thanks again, Solomon.
 
#6 ·
I received the following from W.T. Kelley :

" This is going to end up to be a fall project at Kelley’s but we are going to do it. Business growth has been good this year and our production schedule is packed right now.. We will be sure to put it both in the newsletter as well as on the web."
 
#8 ·
To start off with we will only have the divided BB wedge TB. I reviewed these with Michael Bush at HAS and we were making a bit to thin. We have the specs now and will start production next month. There will be limitied quantities on startup - but should have some equipment built by spring.
 
#10 ·
Why would you want a grooved or divided bottom bar on a foundationless frame? The groove is to fit foundation into, which you won't be using. A solid bottom bar is stronger and cheaper to build. One less cut.
 
#12 ·
I have some hives with narrow frames. Some are grooved top and bottom, others are PF-120's.

I called Kelley's a few days ago and was told that grooved top and bottom bars were going to be made. I guess later on.

Narrow frame use doesn't necessarily mean "foundationless".
 
#14 ·
Odfrank You did not read the post correctly
Yes, excuse me... I am old and confused. I was envisioning a narrow frame with your foundationless wedge topbar...the ultimate frame for the new age, treatment free, natural cell size, Michael Bush disciple beekeeper. In fact, it is my recommendation that the narrow frame can be bought with a foundationless topbar. It would be the langstroth frame for the natural comb, topbar crowd. I will order 100.
 
#17 ·
The narrow end bars are completed, they will go with any design top bar, bottom bar you choose. They are going to be sold only in packs of 100 and will be listed in frame parts in the 2013 catalog. If you would like to order before then please email sales at Kelley. Request the 82Thin. These are only available in deep 9 1/8 end bars. If there is a huge demand we will consider doing medium.
 
#19 ·
Excellent news! :applause: Hopefully they will be available in smaller quantities for hobbyists like me. Would it make sense for them to be available in multiples of twenty two? Or maybe that would take special packaging equipment. I hope you have success with this new product line. Thank you for taking the initiative to provide a resource for factory made narrow frames. :applause:
 
#20 · (Edited)
I suspect that buying topbars and bottom bars separately will make this much more expensive.
I've corrected this post................

The cost per 100 endbars is currently $21.00 (enough for 50 frames)

So for 100 frames, the increase in cost will be about $24.00

If you are interested in buying mediums, call W.T. Kelley and ask to speak with Jennifer.
 
#22 ·
NOTE:

I corrected a previous post. The increase in cost will be about $24 per 100 frames.

The topbars are not altered any. Having waited so long, it's disappointing. Perhaps Kelley's will offer to plane down topbars for an additional service fee...

With all of the trimming, gluing, stapling, and foundation installation, cutting down Mann Lake's PF-120 frames doesn't sound so bad.
 
#24 ·
I made a large purchase of supplies to build deep narrow brood frames from W. T. Kelley. First of all the minimum order for grooved bottom bars is 100 pieces so I ordered enough frame top and end bars to match quantities. I am a hobbyist with two to four hives so materials for 100 frames is a lot. Total order $125 shipping is additional. Overall, I was not impressed with the frame ends. They were indeed 1-1/4” however they were not evenly trimmed for uniform spacing between frames and several of them even split when inserting the top bars. I do like the the bottom bar joints, they should be strong. Either way I believe the bees will use the frames. I swap out the brood frames with the darkest comb annually so sooner or later this too will pass.
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I am just wondering if others have tried them out and how their experience has been.
 
#26 ·
We looked to M Bush for advice on what we needed to do to and the dimensions -- this is why we waited to automate these. We would like to get feedback & dimensions so we can improve upon these. What exactly are the dimensions on top bar and end bar are you looking for.

Kelleys always appreciates any feedback we can get to put the product in your hands you can use.

Thanks!
 
#27 ·
If the end bars are narrowed, the top bars must be correspondingly narrowed so that the critical dimensions at the top of the end bars remain the same (preventing splitting) and the top bars must be separated by the same dimension as they were before.

I bought a batch of foundationless medium frames and trimmed the endbars and found this problem. Kelley's topbars are wide meaning that when you trim the end bars, the top bars get closer together and if they get too close, bees can't squeeze between. For 1 1/4" end bars, the top bar should be no wider than 1" and 7/8" would be better. The two upright parts at the tops of the end bars ought to be at least 1/4" or thicker to prevent splitting.

Most of all, they must be consistent. There is less room for error in narrow frames. Poor ccar2000 is going to have loads of trouble with these inconsistent frames being glued together with propolis and not being the correct center to center dimension leading to comb which is not centered in the frames.
 
#29 ·
Ideal would be a top bar of 1" or slightly less. But I shave down regular frames all the time without shaving the top bars. You should (if it's consistent) have 3/16" between the top bars which the bees can get through and since it's how they move from box to box they don't propolize them. I try to leave at least one a little wider in the center (1/4") so the queen can more easily get through. They aren't right. But they aren't terrible. They are better than wider frames.

If you have less than 3/16" they will just propolize them closed.
 
#31 ·
Might I suggest that WT Kelley create a complete un-assembled package with the appropriate sized top, side and bottom bars for narrow frame beekeeping. Also since most commercial beekeepers are not narrow frame users maybe these complete packages could be made available containing multiples of 11 ie 11, 22, 33, etc... I think there are a lot of hobbyists out there that just have two to four hives in their yard or somewhere close by.

Thank you for your attention and suggestions regarding this matter.
 
#34 ·
I agree with Michael.
I've been cutting down Dadant End bars to 1 1/4" with. It is important that the top bar notch be centered, or the joint is weakened and may split a noted above.

A 1" top bar will allow proper bee space @ 1/4", which is on the narrow end of proper size, imo.

If the frames are made in such a way as not to require any modification or special care, I'll be happy to use them in my brood boxes, and will likely order other things as well when making frame orders.

At present, when I buy cut stock I get it at Dadant as it is local and there is no shipping cost.
But if Kelley were to make foundtionless narrow frames that I can just assemble and use, w/o having to monkey around making mods, with a properly centered top bar, I'd be pleased to pay shipping.
 
#36 ·
I've been following this thread with high interest, because it takes too much of my time making my own frames. If I can obtain suitable wooden frames commercially, for a reasonable cost, it would save me having to make my own - giving me more time actually working with bees.

I am presently making my own frames. I prefer the Top Bars to be 7/8" wide (this provides a nice bee space between frames that have 1-1/4" wide End Bars), and I use a router table and bit to create a comb guide profile on the Top Bars between the End Bars, though a grooved Top Bar would be acceptable, and one with a wedge, somewhat less so. My End Bars are 1-1/4" wide, 3/8" thick and the sides are parallel, top to bottom (I find that used correctly fewer bees are guillotined than with the graduated-width End Bars). My Bottom Bars are 1/2" high and 3/4" wide, and sized to fit inside the bottoms of the End Bars, so I can fasten them with horizontal fasteners through the outside bottom edges of the End Bars (I find that this holds the Bottom Bars best from "pull-out"). Some of my Bottom Bars have a reverse of the comb guide that's on the Top Bars, but I haven't observed that this inspires the bees to more regularly fasten their combs there. I believe the 1/2" height helps inspire comb attachment best, especially if there is bee space beneath the Bottom Bars.

Additionally, I find that four wire holes in End Bars for comb support on deep frames is overkill. Two wire holes in each End Bar, either deep or medium are more than sufficient. On deep frames the top and bottom horizontal wire positions are too close to the Top Bar and Bottom Bar, respectively to provide much reinforcement support. At most deep frames could use three horizontal support wires, but the center one should be positioned where it would be in the center of the finished comb, and the other two equidistant from, but closer to the center wire than to either the Top Bar or Bottom Bar.

I would be happy to provide a prototype if you'd like.

Plan JPEG's are available, here.
 
#37 ·
When I made a batch the 7/8" top bar was perfect and a smaller width dado at the top of the end bar helps. The guy with the pics should get a reimbursement, that's just unacceptable stock to work with. If the top bars were thinner his situation wouldn't be AS bad...
 
#38 ·
Here is my vision of the most acceptable narrow frame based on everything I'm reading here. A top bar with a width of 15/16", end bars with a width of 1 1/4" at the top, the lower part of the end bars has about 3/16" stock removed on each side to give you about a 1/2" or 9/16" width wood at the point where you attach the bottom bar in the way Joseph Clemens does it by putting the bottom bar on the inside of the end bars and nailing/gluing. I might add that having 1 1/4" end bars and a 15/16" top bar will require about a 3/16" dado cut on each side of the top bar ends for the end bars to slide into, that will leave you with about 1/2" to 9/16" of stock left between the two dado cuts on the top bar which should be plenty strong enough. I hope I described it clearly enough. Is this basically what everyone is looking for? John
 
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