Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 51
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Portland, OR, USA
    Posts
    100

    Default Re: Update on narrow frames from Kelley

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelleybees View Post
    These are only available in deep 9 1/8 end bars. If there is a huge demand we will consider doing medium.
    Wonderful! I, for one, am looking for medium foundationless.

    Thanks guys,
    wanderyr

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfield County, Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    3,649

    Default Re: Update on narrow frames from Kelley

    NOTE:

    I corrected a previous post. The increase in cost will be about $24 per 100 frames.

    The topbars are not altered any. Having waited so long, it's disappointing. Perhaps Kelley's will offer to plane down topbars for an additional service fee...

    With all of the trimming, gluing, stapling, and foundation installation, cutting down Mann Lake's PF-120 frames doesn't sound so bad.
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfield County, Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    3,649

    Default Re: Update on narrow frames from Kelley

    Quote Originally Posted by BeeCurious View Post
    The increase in cost will be about $24 per 100 frames.
    Since Kelley isn't reducing the width of their topbars I suspect that many beekeepers will simply trim their frame ends as opposed to spending the additional $24
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Littlerock, California, USA
    Posts
    948

    Default Re: Update on narrow frames from Kelley

    I made a large purchase of supplies to build deep narrow brood frames from W. T. Kelley. First of all the minimum order for grooved bottom bars is 100 pieces so I ordered enough frame top and end bars to match quantities. I am a hobbyist with two to four hives so materials for 100 frames is a lot. Total order $125 shipping is additional. Overall, I was not impressed with the frame ends. They were indeed 1-1/4” however they were not evenly trimmed for uniform spacing between frames and several of them even split when inserting the top bars. I do like the the bottom bar joints, they should be strong. Either way I believe the bees will use the frames. I swap out the brood frames with the darkest comb annually so sooner or later this too will pass.
    End bar width.JPGFrame spacing.JPGEnd bar split.JPGBottom bar fittment.JPG
    I am just wondering if others have tried them out and how their experience has been.
    “Everything will be all right in the end... if it's not all right then it's not yet the end”

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,113

    Default Re: Update on narrow frames from Kelley

    Wow, that is terrible. It doesn't look like they changed the topbar width either. I can do better than that with a table saw. I voiced my approval initially, but I think I will pass at this time. That's no good at all.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  6. #26
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Clarkson, KY
    Posts
    20

    Default Re: Update on narrow frames from Kelley

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    Wow, that is terrible. It doesn't look like they changed the topbar width either. I can do better than that with a table saw. I voiced my approval initially, but I think I will pass at this time. That's no good at all.
    We looked to M Bush for advice on what we needed to do to and the dimensions -- this is why we waited to automate these. We would like to get feedback & dimensions so we can improve upon these. What exactly are the dimensions on top bar and end bar are you looking for.

    Kelleys always appreciates any feedback we can get to put the product in your hands you can use.

    Thanks!

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,113

    Default Re: Update on narrow frames from Kelley

    If the end bars are narrowed, the top bars must be correspondingly narrowed so that the critical dimensions at the top of the end bars remain the same (preventing splitting) and the top bars must be separated by the same dimension as they were before.

    I bought a batch of foundationless medium frames and trimmed the endbars and found this problem. Kelley's topbars are wide meaning that when you trim the end bars, the top bars get closer together and if they get too close, bees can't squeeze between. For 1 1/4" end bars, the top bar should be no wider than 1" and 7/8" would be better. The two upright parts at the tops of the end bars ought to be at least 1/4" or thicker to prevent splitting.

    Most of all, they must be consistent. There is less room for error in narrow frames. Poor ccar2000 is going to have loads of trouble with these inconsistent frames being glued together with propolis and not being the correct center to center dimension leading to comb which is not centered in the frames.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  8. #28
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Clarkson, KY
    Posts
    20

    Default Re: Update on narrow frames from Kelley

    We would appreciate as much feedback as we can get -- Solomon I have forwarded your info onto production and we will have a discussion on a possible change to the top bar allowing for shrinking dimensions on both the end & top bar. Please keep suggestions coming. Thanks!

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,316

    Default Re: Update on narrow frames from Kelley

    Ideal would be a top bar of 1" or slightly less. But I shave down regular frames all the time without shaving the top bars. You should (if it's consistent) have 3/16" between the top bars which the bees can get through and since it's how they move from box to box they don't propolize them. I try to leave at least one a little wider in the center (1/4") so the queen can more easily get through. They aren't right. But they aren't terrible. They are better than wider frames.

    If you have less than 3/16" they will just propolize them closed.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,113

    Default Re: Update on narrow frames from Kelley

    I am happy to help. Sorry if I come off critical, I am not trying to be.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Littlerock, California, USA
    Posts
    948

    Default Re: Update on narrow frames from Kelley

    Might I suggest that WT Kelley create a complete un-assembled package with the appropriate sized top, side and bottom bars for narrow frame beekeeping. Also since most commercial beekeepers are not narrow frame users maybe these complete packages could be made available containing multiples of 11 ie 11, 22, 33, etc... I think there are a lot of hobbyists out there that just have two to four hives in their yard or somewhere close by.

    Thank you for your attention and suggestions regarding this matter.
    “Everything will be all right in the end... if it's not all right then it's not yet the end”

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfield County, Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    3,649

    Default Re: Update on narrow frames from Kelley

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    Ideal would be a top bar of 1" or slightly less.
    The Kelley top bars are approximately 1 1/32"

    I will be thinning mine down on a router and I learned that "Whiteside" bits are nice and http://www.hartvilletool.com/ ships for free. I plan to stop about 1/2" from the end bar location...
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfield County, Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    3,649

    Default Re: Update on narrow frames from Kelley

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    Ideal would be a top bar of 1" or slightly less.
    The Kelley top bars are approximately 1 1/32"

    I will be thinning mine down on a router and I learned that "Whiteside" bits are nice and http://www.hartvilletool.com/ ships for free. I plan to stop about 1/2" from the end bar location...


    I find the irregular endbar widths shown in this photo to be unacceptable :
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    967

    Default Re: Update on narrow frames from Kelley

    I agree with Michael.
    I've been cutting down Dadant End bars to 1 1/4" with. It is important that the top bar notch be centered, or the joint is weakened and may split a noted above.

    A 1" top bar will allow proper bee space @ 1/4", which is on the narrow end of proper size, imo.

    If the frames are made in such a way as not to require any modification or special care, I'll be happy to use them in my brood boxes, and will likely order other things as well when making frame orders.

    At present, when I buy cut stock I get it at Dadant as it is local and there is no shipping cost.
    But if Kelley were to make foundtionless narrow frames that I can just assemble and use, w/o having to monkey around making mods, with a properly centered top bar, I'd be pleased to pay shipping.

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Portland, OR, USA
    Posts
    100

    Default Re: Update on narrow frames from Kelley

    Yes, 1" wide (or slightly less). I've modified about 50 Mann Lake frames. Their top bars are exactly 1", leaving enough space once you trim down the edge pieces.

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    5,401

    Default Re: Update on narrow frames from Kelley

    I've been following this thread with high interest, because it takes too much of my time making my own frames. If I can obtain suitable wooden frames commercially, for a reasonable cost, it would save me having to make my own - giving me more time actually working with bees.

    I am presently making my own frames. I prefer the Top Bars to be 7/8" wide (this provides a nice bee space between frames that have 1-1/4" wide End Bars), and I use a router table and bit to create a comb guide profile on the Top Bars between the End Bars, though a grooved Top Bar would be acceptable, and one with a wedge, somewhat less so. My End Bars are 1-1/4" wide, 3/8" thick and the sides are parallel, top to bottom (I find that used correctly fewer bees are guillotined than with the graduated-width End Bars). My Bottom Bars are 1/2" high and 3/4" wide, and sized to fit inside the bottoms of the End Bars, so I can fasten them with horizontal fasteners through the outside bottom edges of the End Bars (I find that this holds the Bottom Bars best from "pull-out"). Some of my Bottom Bars have a reverse of the comb guide that's on the Top Bars, but I haven't observed that this inspires the bees to more regularly fasten their combs there. I believe the 1/2" height helps inspire comb attachment best, especially if there is bee space beneath the Bottom Bars.

    Additionally, I find that four wire holes in End Bars for comb support on deep frames is overkill. Two wire holes in each End Bar, either deep or medium are more than sufficient. On deep frames the top and bottom horizontal wire positions are too close to the Top Bar and Bottom Bar, respectively to provide much reinforcement support. At most deep frames could use three horizontal support wires, but the center one should be positioned where it would be in the center of the finished comb, and the other two equidistant from, but closer to the center wire than to either the Top Bar or Bottom Bar.

    I would be happy to provide a prototype if you'd like.

    Plan JPEG's are available, here.
    48 years - 50 hives - TF
    Joseph Clemens -- Website Under Constructioni

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Pueblo, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    696

    Default Re: Update on narrow frames from Kelley

    When I made a batch the 7/8" top bar was perfect and a smaller width dado at the top of the end bar helps. The guy with the pics should get a reimbursement, that's just unacceptable stock to work with. If the top bars were thinner his situation wouldn't be AS bad...
    Zone 5a @ 4700 ft. High Desert
    Facebook

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Grosse Ile, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,896

    Default Re: Update on narrow frames from Kelley

    Here is my vision of the most acceptable narrow frame based on everything I'm reading here. A top bar with a width of 15/16", end bars with a width of 1 1/4" at the top, the lower part of the end bars has about 3/16" stock removed on each side to give you about a 1/2" or 9/16" width wood at the point where you attach the bottom bar in the way Joseph Clemens does it by putting the bottom bar on the inside of the end bars and nailing/gluing. I might add that having 1 1/4" end bars and a 15/16" top bar will require about a 3/16" dado cut on each side of the top bar ends for the end bars to slide into, that will leave you with about 1/2" to 9/16" of stock left between the two dado cuts on the top bar which should be plenty strong enough. I hope I described it clearly enough. Is this basically what everyone is looking for? John

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,113

    Default Re: Update on narrow frames from Kelley

    I'm okay with the traditional attachment for the bottom bar. I don't believe that needs to be modified at all. Kelley's method is adequate.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    5,401

    Default Re: Update on narrow frames from Kelley

    Here are some pics of some I just made:

    Link

    They're a little too large to display here.
    48 years - 50 hives - TF
    Joseph Clemens -- Website Under Constructioni

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Ads