Randy Oliver, Queen Breeding, explanation for Treatment-Free Successes and Failures?

[Solomon Parker]

... uncapped pupae in the purple eye stage as well as chewed pupae immediately showed up in my hives when I stopped all treatments and started doing shakedowns.

I have noticed it as well. I wasn't surprised, as you know, Dee predicted it. I wonder how it starts though. Is it possible that the parasite pressure Randy is talking about causes genes to be expressed that were used at some point in the genetic past but have been forgotten about? Or is it just something a small part of the population has and it's only those ones that survive? I don't know.

Listening to Mr. Oliver's presentation, I wondered why he doesn't just go treatment-free. I know he needs his bees to make money, but it only makes sense with the things he's talking about, selecting for weak bees, needing constant pressure from pests, etc. It really speaks to me to answer the question why so many newbees fail. They're given bees not adapted to their location, bees been treated, sometimes by law, packages and nucs with fresh unproven queens, packages which by their nature are already very stressed, and other things I'm sure I'll think of later.

I've received a couple comments 'round about, the gall I have to suggest anything to migratory beekeepers. Pay attention to the subject of this thread fellas. These are my conclusions from this presentation, what are yours? Let's be civil and intellectually honest about this and all discussions here in the Treatment-Free Beekeeping forum. Let's make this enjoyable and intellectually stimulating.

[Michael Bush]

>Is it possible that the parasite pressure Randy is talking about causes genes to be expressed that were used at some point in the genetic past but have been forgotten about? Or is it just something a small part of the population has and it's only those ones that survive?

I doubt it's genetics changing, but I would say in my observation many traits in bees do not get expressed until some point of stress is reached. That is my problem with any short term study of anything with bees. If you want to see if bees are going to survive Varroa, you have to wait until there is a battle for survival going on to expect to see things change. I doubt you will see bees uncapping pupae until there is a serious Varroa threat, not when there are only a few Varroa.

[Oldtimer]

uncapped pupae in the purple eye stage as well as chewed pupae immediately showed up in my hives when I stopped all treatments and started doing shakedowns. Until then, I had never seen this before. That was 10 years ago. I sense from his talk that he has just recently started seeing this.

Barry I've always had that in my treated hives if varroa levels are getting up, and see it in the hives of others also. I've seen it in my sc tf hives also but have not been around sc tf long enough to really say if it's more common than in treated hives. But I think it's just a sign of varroa numbers getting high wether the hive is treated or not, I would concur with Michael Bush on that.

As to Sol's suggestion that this may be a manifestation of something left in bees genes from some threat they were exposed to in the distant past, I think this is highly likely. Otherwise, how would they know to do it.
However, the other explanation could be somewhat different, fully hygienic bees remove the pupa completely, and bees that just remove the capping may be trying to be hygienic, but not doing it properly. Do they really have the "intelligence" to attempt to dry out the male varroa mite? Who really knows? But I suspect there may be another explanation.

As to the question raised why Randy does not go treatment free, this is part of the dilema faced by people who have to make a profit. He can see the reasons for being treatment free, and possibly has a better understanding of the subject than anyone here. But he has to be practicle, it is not just a hobby for him.

[sqkcrk]

The big point here is that mutations can only be inherited if present in the gonad.

Only if those gonads are used. If not, no passing on of change. Or was that not necassary to say?

[Barry]

Barry I've always had that in my treated hives if varroa levels are getting up, and see it in the hives of others also. I've seen it in my sc tf hives also but have not been around sc tf long enough to really say if it's more common than in treated hives. But I think it's just a sign of varroa numbers getting high wether the hive is treated or not, I would concur with Michael Bush on that.

I would agree with both you and Michael on this. My take on what Randy said in his talk indicated this was something "new" and more research was being done regarding this "varroa sense of hygiene" in the VSH and Russian line at Baton Rouge. Bees will naturally do this if given the chance to.

[sqkcrk]

Randy Oliver's website can be found at ScientificBeekeeping.com. It would be worth checking out for better understanding of what Randy Oliver does and is all about.

[D Semple]

Barry I've always had that in my treated hives if varroa levels are getting up, and see it in the hives of others also. I've seen it in my sc tf hives also but have not been around sc tf long enough to really say if it's more common than in treated hives. But I think it's just a sign of varroa numbers getting high wether the hive is treated or not, I would concur with Michael Bush on that.

Dee, contends that this behavior and other hygienic traits are most expressed during the fall brood turnover period and that it's critical to the overall health of the colony not to disrupt the fall brood turnover cycle with treatments or manipulations.

[Vance G]

A woman with a chainsaw who traps swarms and does cutouts surely can't fear the garden variety grumpy old men around here?

Delta, I agree. I tried to type up a basis for why, and chickened out. Someone's just going to "yell" at me anyway.

[Gypsi]

A woman with a chainsaw who traps swarms and does cutouts surely can't fear the garden variety grumpy old men around here?

Not fear. I have sense enough to know that outside of fish, and some botany, I do NOT know what I am talking about when it comes to genetics, so I am going to zip my lips and READ. When I think of an intelligent comment, it will be one I'm willing to argue over if I get yelled at.

[KQ6AR]

I liked the audio file.
It takes genetics out of the lab, & into the farmers hands as its been done for thousands of years. Really made a lot of sense to me, with the way he explained it.

[Acebird]

Listen to the audio and share your conclusions. Let's not argue over each other's conclusions, just share your own please.

It sounded like he switch philosophies in mid stream.
He starts off explaining how pressure on the colony can build resistance to a parasite so you shouldn't buy queens from far away places and then all of a sudden he is talking about selecting queens for packages at the end. Almost if he realized who was paying for his speach and the audiance was not the right mix. A lot of what he said made sense to me but it seemed like a U turn at the end.

[Mr. C]

I didn't take that away, you don't have to buy a package from far away. If your migratory where is your local? I think he was just trying to explain how the system could work for multiple situations, though now that I say it I guess I can see how that might be switching gears from stationary beekeeping to migratory /shrug I've got my hands full just trying to figure out how to move my bees from apples to blueberries this year, I don't want to even touch a migratory operation.

[Acebird]

I'd say a migratory beekeeper should use queens bred from migratory stock, but I don't know of many migratory queen breeders, usually the breeding operation stays put.

[Edit] It sounded like Randy was picking queens from bees on almonds.

[KQ6AR]

He's talking more about the right bee for the right job. Locally adapted, or adapted for the right job.
I don't think you could raise the right queen for migratory beekeeping, their conditions are always changing.
Randy does almond pollination.

[Solomon Parker]

I don't think you could raise the right queen for migratory beekeeping

I think you could. And I believe you'd have to, to do migratory treatment-free beekeeping. You'd need a bee that was able to thrive despite constantly changing conditions and those conditions would need to be constantly changed in order to maintain selective pressure. Queens bred from migratory super star queens would themselves need to be tested under migratory conditions. It would seem to me to be a difficult proposition to succeed, but I'm coming to believe it could be done.

[Oldtimer]

I think any reasonable bee would be as good as any other, for the reasons given by KQ6AR.

As well as those reasons, there is a lot of other stuff in the mix of migratory beekeeping, other than just the queen. Such as, nutrition, exposure to different bees, exposure to different mites, to name just a few.

It is interesting how various ideas come into vogue, then fade again. One I've seen coming up lately is a belief in the need for local bees. If this is correct, it would run counter to a migratory breed. Probably, neither are absolutely true, or absolutely false. Bees will be bees.

[sqkcrk]

It would seem to me to be a difficult proposition to succeed, but I'm coming to believe it could be done.

I don't know if we have them now or not, that is a point which some could argue, but we have had bees which were suitable for migrating. I have no reason to believe that migrating is a cause of current problems in commercial beekeeping or beekeeping in general.

Look at what is different today compared to the way things were before 1984 and tell me it what way, besides going to California for Almonds, things are different. Mites, nosema cerana, and SHB. Maybe some changes in other parts of agriculture.

The biggest difference may be a culmination of all factors.

If we wish to concentrate on producing a sustainable migratory bee, what would we be looking for in that bee? What is a sustainable migratory bee? One whose queen will live and produce well from the Spring in which its' nuc was made, thru that Summer and on until the next Spring so a nuc came be made from that colony? And then thru another Summer and Winter? Two years?

[Solomon Parker]

I have no reason to believe that migrating is a cause of current problems in commercial beekeeping or beekeeping in general.

Not all of them of course, but a portion of this presentation was about localization. Epigenetics are expressed through activation or inactivation by stress or other factors, and moving is stressful to bees. At this point in time, major migration can't be done with treatment-free bees. And you know that treatment-free bees sold off to somewhere else don't have that great a success either.

If we wish to concentrate on producing a sustainable migratory bee, what would we be looking for in that bee? What is a sustainable migratory bee? One whose queen will live and produce well from the Spring in which its' nuc was made, thru that Summer and on until the next Spring so a nuc came be made from that colony? And then thru another Summer and Winter? Two years?

Sure, that sounds good. I don't question your experience, you are the one actually doing it. But it's not just sustainability, you have that, it's treatment-free sustainability that we want. We don't have treatment-free migratory beekeepers except that guy deknow mentioned whose name we do not yet know. Do you think we should?

[sqkcrk]

and moving is stressful to bees.

At this point in time, major migration can't be done with treatment-free bees.

you are the one actually doing it.

except that guy deknow mentioned whose name we do not yet know. Do you think we should?

I acknowledge that moving bees is stressful for them. Shucks, it's stressful for me. But, to what degree are bees stressed by moving? How can we record and evaluate that stress? How do we measure the effects?

Major migration can't be done w/ treatmentfree bees? I'd say that it hasn't been demonstrated that keeping bees can be done treatmentfree, yet. All cases are anecdotal, until there are many more documentable demonstratable examples which also include being nonlocal. If the only way we can say that treatmentfree beekeeping is successful is that it is successful nuntil the bees are moved, that isn't successfull enough.

I hope you don't come down on me for the above. You opened the door.

I am the one actually doing what? I'm not sure what you are refering to. I want to be sure I understand.

I'm not sure of whom you are refering when you speak of the person who deknow won't mention by name. Perhaps he is refering to Sam Comfort. I am not up on your exchanges w/ Dean. Sam, as a beekeeper, and as a migratory beekeeper, is in a class of his own. I like him as a person and enjoy his company. Even though he doesn't bathe enuf for some friends of mine he is a breath of fresh air in some ways, an excentric in others.

[Solomon Parker]

I acknowledge that moving bees is stressful for them. Shucks, it's stressful for me. But, to what degree are bees stressed by moving? How can we record and evaluate that stress? How do we measure the effects?

I don't know. This is a thread about conclusions. It was my conclusion that migratory TF is possible. That wasn't always my position. How to? I don't know. I'm not migratory. It's just my conclusion from this presentation.

If the only way we can say that treatmentfree beekeeping is successful is that it is successful nuntil the bees are moved, that isn't successfull enough.

I have no problem with that. It's obviously not successful enough for you because it doesn't provide what you need. I'm not as disagreeable as you might have heard.

I am the one actually doing what?

Migrating. It's a nod to your expertise in that area.

Perhaps he is refering to Sam Comfort.

I hadn't heard Sam was migratory. It's definitely someone else.

What other conclusions have others drawn? Better fed queen better than a better bred queen? Oooh, I think I'm going to use that one!