Paid to maintain Warre hives

[HiveAtYourHome]

Yes that's a question I would like to direct to Warre beekeepers, in Warre method, what is the attitude to swarming? Is any attempt made to control it? Or is it seen as something that should be allowed to happen?

Not speaking for me as this is the opposite of what an established business could ever operate on and one of my reasons for posting is that I have to fight swarming (hence glad to get pointers from folks without a Warre hive or swarm is good mindset as I must deviate in that direction), but for the clandestine dedicated, I think that you may be on to people oldtimer as many enthusiasts are likely setting up purpose built swarm generators just left around randomly in the woods (and more controversially urban areas.) Why promote swarming? Why leave swarm generators on a tree in the woods and never come back? I surmise, they think that by allowing bees to reproduce themselves (swarming is the only normal bee reproduction) that the bees will beat scientists to discovering lines that are not easy-die welfare bees.

I don't do this, but I understand the motivation as most beekeepers although they like bees, want something from the bees and don't want their bees to die for the good of eliminating weak stock so we do things to save them. Bees reproducing on their own only let the fittest survive and the easy-die, treatment welfare bee dna is breed out. So I'm not going to speak for Warre beekeepers and be the one to say "yes swarming should happen" as its not part of my model as I don't really think of what I'll be doing as Warre's model of beekeeping, but if you keep asking this I'm sure you will find someone to agree with that and defend swarming.

Kagen
Hive At Your Home
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...ome-honey-bees

[HiveAtYourHome]

Hehe, I've noticed that From my limited experience with my Langsroth and Topbar they both have advantages and disadvantages. I will try a Warre eventually just so I can make an informed opinion on all of them.

I think your on to something there odfrank & quevernick. While devoties of Langstroth, hTBHs, or Warre might not concede the disadvantages of their choice or the advantages of another type, but no type of hive or management is perfect, but all in practice must have some advantages or they wouldn't be used.

I do find it peculiar that a devotee of any hive type or practice would visit the forum of a type or management style that they don't think their are advantages to be learned from.

[Oldtimer]

OK well to me the advantage with a top bar hive is it's built to suit the beekeeper, ie, no heavy lifting. The advantage with a lang is it suits the bees inclination to store honey at the top, so they can store you a decent honey crop. What then, is the advantage of Warre?

[HiveAtYourHome]

If you can't be bothered to do anything other than toss an empty box of foundationless frames above the colony, then they will make a mess of things...but they will (like all space added above the established colony) fill it in earnest....
deknow

Did you personally get bees to draw a box of foundationless frames supered in earnest? If you did that was a non-standard result, check beesource forums, the most oftenly used mistaken argument posted against foundationless stating the bees took forever to draw and would have done so fast with foundation, is the mistake of supering foundationless frames. There are many postings here from beeks wondering why they the bees won't draw, and many posters have pointed out that mistake.

If you did get bees to draw foundationless above so earnestly, were you feeding from above that?

You are spot on about that there is emergency drive for space above, but the only time foundation will be drawn quicker than foundationless is supering it, so I could not think of anyone calling drawing it above as an action in earnest, maybe I'm quibbling...hmmm.

You are also right on in that they would make a mess, most likely starting comb from the bottom and such.

[HiveAtYourHome]

OK well to me the advantage with a top bar hive is it's built to suit the beekeeper, ie, no heavy lifting. The advantage with a lang is it suits the bees inclination to store honey at the top, so they can store you a decent honey crop. What then, is the advantage of Warre?

Well after 50 odd years of research and 500 or so hive designs, Warre's book "Beekeeping for All" (download at http://www.users.callnetuk.com/~heaf...ng_for_all.pdf) is a good place to start to answer that,

but seriously I urge you to start that thread asking to list advantages and disadvantages, but be clear are you asking about the traditional Warre methods, or the dimensions of a Warre's "the People's Hive" box, or strict adherence to using both in conjunction.

[Oldtimer]

True, I guess it's a bit off topic for this thread.

[HiveAtYourHome]

True, I guess it's a bit off topic for this thread.

My intent isn't just off topic or not but I think you've hit on the pivotal thing that most checking out a Warre forum who aren't converts already want to see. It DESERVES its own thread.

Also admittedly I'm not up for codifying THE definitive list for Warre advantages, I've been chatty enough.

[Maddox65804]

Honeybees are being used - that means there are going to be similar management issues, and therefore similar time inputs, no matter what hive design is being used

[HiveAtYourHome]

So it seems very on topic to explain why using the Warre design works best for the business you propose. Honeybees are being used - that means there are going to be similar management issues, and therefore similar time inputs, no matter what hive design is being used

First, Agree that that hive design doesn't influence time input nearly as much as management style, and situations drive managment style. So I must concede a Warre and Langstroth managed the "same" take the same amount of time, think I implied it didn't earlier glad to have that set straight thanks for the catch. (But you can't really manage the "same" a hTBH, but I guess moving a follower board could be equated to adding a box? Its just hard to visualize saying its the same management and I think there are many situations that a hTBH may take more time input than a vertical box of any dimension configuration.)

Second. Why choose Warre design if urban/suburban locations drive management to be the ~same? Answer is three-fold, public relations, Warre is by far the easiest to make, and I do disagree in that a hTBH would need more manipulations by design.

Warre being easy (OK, my Warre is simplified and is easier/cheaper than real design, see previous post): OK 45 minutes of my time per complete hive (6 boxes (1 to go over feeder), bottom/entrance, top, insulation,making paint can a feeder.) I had the wood and spent <$10 per hive and feeder. With one circular saw, one stapler, one ruler, pencil, & pair of snips could you make a Langstroth hive (2 deep, one shallow and box for top feeder, bottom board, inner cover, outer cover, 30 frames) from rough cut board in 45 minutes? Would it cost you less than $10? Even hTBH need the bars ripped lengthwise at good spacing tolerance.

Public relations:
We may be talking bees, but in all things the actual technical activity means little in comparison to people and politics.
I think Warre is a far superior hive choice to a conventionally run Langstroth in urban/close suburban settings. The reaction of people counts more than the the supposed difference in what will happen with bees (keeping in mind not following Warre's methods unfortunately.) I've brought both down to community gathers at the sponsored locations. Giant white Langstroths scare people (they should the 3 deeps of brood produces
a less timid hive) rough cut small boxes don't stick out, or painted individually by people it screams someone is proud of this, someone loves this hive and their is nothing wrong with it. The perception response to the
Langstroths is a lot of revulsion, they are commercial, they are big and scary, and there is their auto connection to peoples stereotypes of bees. Warre's break out of that and I'm going in that direction because of the issues of
urban/suburban beekeeping. At growing center meeting this feedback made it obvious to me that Warres are much more suited to urban beekeeping. People in urban settings want bee awareness and for them to feel a connection, the maximum honey and pollination isn't necessary and the ill will towards Langstroths is counterproductive.

Choosing Warre over simple hTBH: Although you can manage any dimension of vertical stacked boxes similarly, I don't think that extends to hTBHs. I just think that putting packages in hTBHs would necessitate more frequent management than what is necessary for a Langstroth or Warre given the situation I face at least initially. So Warre style design was chosen over hTBH.

[quevernick]

You do realize there is no law stating you have to paint langstroth hives white Mine are actually brown since I got mistint paint. If the cheapest paint was Pink I'd have pink hives. Given that your using a circular saw Langstroth boxes would be a little difficult to make. If I had to use a circular saw to make boxes they would be crooked as crap :0

[odfrank]

Giant white Langstroths scare people (they should the 3 deeps of brood produces a less timid hive) The perception response to the
Langstroths is a lot of revulsion, they are commercial, they are big and scary, and there is their auto connection to peoples stereotypes of bees.People in urban settings want bee awareness and for them to feel a connection, the maximum honey and pollination isn't necessary and the ill will towards Langstroths is counterproductive.
.

There is a lot of public beekeeping going on in this area, hives on the rooftop of the San Francisco Chronicle Newspaper, hives on the Google campus. It is all being carried on with Langstroth hives. I have not heard any of the "revulsion" "ill-will" and "scariness" that you speak of at any of these projects. These comments sound pretty far fetched to me. Run your business with the hive you find best suited, you don't have to convince any of us.

[HiveAtYourHome]

@ quevernick -
OK, you are right Langstroths don't need be white. And most near me know about the cheap deals on mistake paint and go that route. As I have only 1/5 acre where I'm at (the 60+ acres I reference in design post is the farm I own and land nearby it but don't live there,) I debated between unpainted and unobtrusive route or the paint fancy a be proud of the two hives at my house. Since I invite neighbors over and let folks watch from the screened gazebo that they are next to, I went the paint them brightly and be proud route. Check out my profile photo here or my website to see. One is a rainbow color with each box/component, the other black or yellow for components, then white with yellow/black details for boxes. My soon to be 3 year old named one rainbow-bright and the other one warrior princess.

Hive At Your Home
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...ome-honey-bees

[HiveAtYourHome]

@ oddfrank -
Sorry if it seems demonizing, but just passing on the feedback I got at sessions when I did the research and asked. I have Langstroths at my own house and see nothing wrong with them personally, but if one is honest you already know people had those reactions. But It does seems I do need to convince some of you that in a Warre forum that it is OK to post that I plan to use Warre style hives. That there are some advantages to Warre, just as there are some advantages to Langstroths, and some to horizontal hives. It seems that anything that is similiar to a warre in design and connecting to any of the philosophy of Warre is being attacked and I brought out a couple of points on the other side. Warre hives being different cause people to stop and form an opinion, they already have preconceived notions about Langstroth Hives even if they don't know the name, some people good notions, some people bad. By talking to people about bees while they are forming an opinion its easier. I don't believe I need to defend the Langstroth hive, others are doing a fine job doing that and its success in number of users speaks to that.

If there is not one advantage to either Warre hives in design or Warre's management style then why are people wasting their time posting?

Unbelievable that anyone would not have ever heard of negativity towards hives and bees by non-beekeepers. The people actually putting "hives on the rooftop of the San Francisco Chronicle Newspaper, hives on the Google campus" etc. I am 100% sure thought about the public and that a percentage of people will have negative opinions about bees no matter what hive style one has, and I can guarantee that someone thinks revulsion" "ill-will" and "scariness" about the bees in those projects. Not necessarily because they are Langstroths, but because they are bees. Because they are Langstroths its harder to put them in the light of a simple friendly project as the general public connects them with commercial beekeeping. Those examples I concede the type is not as import as location where the public can get closer, rooftops of a single house or apartment, community gardens etc. In those projects the hives are probably not visible to anyone and you can't get within great distances of them. For smaller plots that are private homes the look of the hive becomes more important as it shifts from bees as a concept to "hey what am I looking at over there."

[Oldtimer]

Because they are Langstroths its harder to put them in the light of a simple friendly project as the general public connects them with commercial beekeeping.

I don't think the general public have any issues with commercial beekeeping. The only issues with commercial beekeeping come from within a small section of beekeepers themselves, and the general public only pick up on these attitudes if they are passed on to them by beekeepers who hold these opinions.

[HiveAtYourHome]

Probably fairly true but I wasn't meaning to imply that, I wasn't eluding to that sentiment you are mentioning so much as I agree that the general public probably has little opinion of commercial beekeepers one way or the other.

To clarify what I meant, as private residents not liking ANYTHING not residential near their residences, any thing that reminds them of a commercial or industry enterprise. Kinda saying that its the difference in response by a neighbor thinking "here is my neighbors hobby hive", versus "my neighbor moved in a commercial enterprise" Trying to play off the hive as the persons pet project, that its personal to them, and that hey this is no big deal, just something small. As it doesn't ring clear that that is my intent in the first post maybe I'm reaching with that.

[quevernick]

There are certain sections of the public that have a aversion to bees or flying stinging insects period. My little sister is one of them, she wont go any where near my hives. No matter the type, if the hives are out in plain view people will see the bees. There is a very visible cloud of bees when they are active. And if they have the mentioned aversion will most likely start complaining. Bees are great though since they can do their job while remaining hidden. Which would be my point I try to keep bees that I have on other peoples propery away from the public eye.

[Maddox65804]

I must apologize first. I had written a response because I had not seen the arguments that you had presented on Page 2 (somehow, I skipped from page 1 to page 3 by accident). So much of my response had already been answered. My apologies for the mistaken post.

The choice of Warre over Langstroth seems mostly driven by the limited construction facilities - and that is a good reason. I was curious about the factors that led to the decisions. I was not intending to criticize them.

Warres are essentially Langstroth hives using top bars instead of full frames. The main difference in management is the under-supering (nadiring). Not a lot significant differences between the two. Even the looks of the two systems are pretty much the same if you chose to let them be so.

Good luck with the enterprise and thanks for letting us explore the ins and outs of your thought process.

[Zonker]

Wow crazy thread ... but a big part of my use of the Warre hives is that both my wife and my mom insist that I use them since the are so "cute". I think HiveatHome is right about the general appeal of public.