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  1. #1
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    Aug 2011
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    Default Paid to maintain Warre hives

    Started a new company today (Hive At Your Home) which Warre was the answer for. I'm going to be maintaining hives in Boston, NE Mass. and Southern NH, people paying for pollination, having a hive, and some honey. I would not be able to do this with a Langstroth for two reasons. (OK they will be modified Warre to easily comply with NH and MA regs on inspection.)
    1st: The start-up capital would prevent Langstroth, but as I have lumber already my version of a modified Warre hives are <$10 each.
    2nd: A Langstroth or hTBH would require numerous manipulations throughout the year. When there are at scattered out-yards with sometimes only 1 hive a proper Warre approach allows for much less travel as I'll only open them ~3 times a year.

    Additionally I'm getting people to adopt hives at community gardens, organic CSA farms, a historic garden, and an educational center through a kickstarter project (online funding donations with rewards.)

    So although there will be Langstroths and hTBHs at my house for breeding, the out-yards will all be Warre. Admittedly this model needs both the revenue from getting most of the honey and people paying to have them there, but then again big commercial guys rely on the pollination fees so...

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
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    Auckland, New Zealand
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    44

    Default Re: Paid to maintain Warre hives

    We would be interested in the specifications of your modified Warre, length, breadth and height , and your planned manipulations for the season.

  3. #3
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    May 2002
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    San Mateo, CA
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    Default Re: Paid to maintain Warre hives

    [QUOTE=H A Langstroth or hTBH would require numerous manipulations throughout the year. [/QUOTE]

    I know guys who stack a bunch of supers on a Langstroth and return in fall to harvest them, me included at some sites. A wood box is a wood box, they can be managed the same way. You are trying to give Warres some magical quality I fail to see.

  4. #4
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    24,490

    Default Re: Paid to maintain Warre hives

    Quote Originally Posted by HiveAtYourHome View Post
    but then again big commercial guys rely on the pollination fees so...
    "so" what? What are you saying that you didn't?

    Pollination for many commercial beekeepers is part of the whole income producing venture. But, there are commercial operations which do no paid pollination.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
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    Cookeville, TN
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    138

    Default Re: Paid to maintain Warre hives

    I've seen quite a few people say that Warre Hives require the least amount of attention of the three major Hive types. However I'd imagine if you are trying to manage the hive to comply with removeable frame laws then a lot of the advantages of a Warre Hive would not apply. At least initially you would need to check the hive quite frequently to make sure comb is drawn out straight (unless I've misunderstood something). Most of the manipulations of a Langstroth Hive generally tend to be for Swarm Prevention. I've havent seen anyone running a Warre Hive mention Swarm Prevention. Is it not needed due to the hive design or do you just not worry about it. If you just dont worry about it then I really dont see the advantage of a warre versus a Langstroth with a bunch of supers stacked on top and left alone as mentioned earlier.
    Last edited by quevernick; 02-11-2012 at 09:03 PM. Reason: mispelling

  6. #6
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Paid to maintain Warre hives

    Warré hives, being 1/2 the size, would surely have more swarming issues if left unmanaged, than a lang? IE, if you left a lang, and a Warré with equal bee numbers, both stacked 5 high and unmanaged, the Warré would probably swarm first, and the most.

    Is swarming regarded as just a natural behaviour that should be allowed to happen, in Warré method?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Chesterfield, NH
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    464

    Default Re: Paid to maintain Warre hives

    I see this is you'r 1st post is this you'r time 1st at trying to keep to keep bees to ??



    BEE HAPPY Jim 134

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
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    Nashua, NH, USA
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    58

    Default Re: Paid to maintain Warre hives - Oldtimer

    @ oldtimer -

    Swarming in regards to volume is the same Warre/ Langstroth

    2 Deep Langstroth boxes with the same amount of bees as 4 Warre boxes gives about the same result. (that is the fair comparison) Warre isn't magic.

    "Warre Method" now you using that term is important as it is possible to distuish between the Warre box and his prescribed method. I would say however that a higher percentage of practicioners but Warre boxes real close to Warres method than the percantage of beekeepers who use Langstroth boxes do their beekeeping real close to what Langstroth wrote.

    The same beekeeper choices exist to allow bees to do what they do in any hive if they are doing well, swarm. Although I think Warre nadiring would do a much better job at swarm prevention than Langstroth style (talking methods here) supering at preventing swarming; the tools available are more limited with Warre (nadir, split) then langstroths unless you want to seriously deviate from Warre's intents then you could do about anything the same.

  9. #9
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    Aug 2011
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    Nashua, NH, USA
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    58

    Default Re: Paid to maintain Warre hives

    @ Jim 134
    No the name here is new as of last week as the name of the company is new. Just abandoned my old account, figured I should use the actual name of my company and not hide it behind some old random user name. (meaning I feel its more important that my business is accountable than I care what oisters think of my join date.
    Last edited by HiveAtYourHome; 02-17-2012 at 06:41 PM.

  10. #10
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Paid to maintain Warre hives - Oldtimer

    Quote Originally Posted by HiveAtYourHome View Post
    2 Deep Langstroth boxes with the same amount of bees as 4 Warre boxes gives about the same result. (that is the fair comparison) Warre isn't magic.
    Thing is though, if you will be using Warre method, ie, not doing much manipulation, most Warres' from what I understand, don't often go past 5 boxes total, only the equivalent of 2 1/2 langs. So you are virtually guaranteed to force the bees to swarm, probably multiple times. This will be a nuisance to some of your customers.

    I do have some experience with hives this size, because many years ago I spent two years working for a guy who ran a particular queen bee breeding operation. The frames he used in his nucs where 3/4 standard lang depth, and 3/4 standard lang length. So to keep everything standard we also used hives that were made of boxes 3/4 depth and 3/4 length, or in other words, virtually the same size as a Warre.

    Although undersupering (or in french, nadiring), is the preferred Warre method, this is not about swarm control it's because in Warre method the new boxes added do not have comb or comb foundation. If the boxes do have comb or comb foundation, as was the case with us, the bees take more readily to boxes added on top. Undersupering, if done during a heavy flow, forces the bees to wait till brood hatches before they can store honey in the preferred location, the top. They feel crowded, which promotes swarming impulse. Top supering is better in that circumstance.

    Swarming was not a problem to us, because we were constantly harvesting packages. But bees in a hive this size can build and fill it very rapidly, without fairly intensive management swarming would be a major concern.

    But anyhow, very pleased someone is actually doing what you are doing, and there is something about Warre hives people find appealing. I'm sure the business will go well, just sharing a few thoughts from my own experience.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  11. #11
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    Aug 2011
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    Nashua, NH, USA
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    Default Re: Paid to maintain Warre hives

    Quote Originally Posted by quevernick View Post
    Swarm Prevention.
    see reply to Oldtimer abouts swarms in this thread.

    A couple Warre advantages:
    overwintering (in a lang they need to move this way then that or they leave honey behind before moving to the next box, also what's with the skimpy 3/4" wood),

    Bees in natural comb need more depth than a langstroth to get to the smaller brood cells (combs have honey above, then pollen, then in the middle of a brood nest if the comb is allowed to get deeper the brood cells get smaller, the bees try to breed bees of different sizes. In a traditional warre this can happen.

    In a traditional warre the comb is continuous, none of this making the bees jump up a frame, there are many studies showing how this negatively affects the bees.

    My favorite: I built mine for <$10 thats 5 bodies high (two lang deeps and a shallow) another body to put a feeder in (I feed packages, then don't feed again, leave honey), rigid sound insulation board (breathable) instead of Warre's fancy quilt, tile for a roof and weight, frames.

    There are many things, some blur the management versus physically box or other. For physicalness....need to continue later, kid needs to be in bed. But that is better for a general "what are the advantages of a traditional physical warre hive" "what are the advantages of Warre management" threads anyways then here.

  12. #12
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    Feb 2011
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    Cookeville, TN
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    138

    Default Re: Paid to maintain Warre hives

    Im guessing you had most of these materials laying around if you built all of that for <$10. I've thought about using 2x instead of 3/4 to make langstroth hives. The biggest reason I can think not to, would be weight and it wouldn't be a standard size.

  13. #13
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Paid to maintain Warre hives

    Yes, we have a guy here who does rental langs, built of 2 inch timber. The edges of the boxes are bevelled, making them quite attractive. But it does add weight. A full box of honey is heavy enough, and these thick boxes tip it that much harder.

    With Warres though, the smaller size means the weight is not such an issue. Langs, being bigger, do not require the same amount of insulation, so 3/4 or 7/8 timber is normally fine.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  14. #14
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    Aug 2011
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    Nashua, NH, USA
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    Default Re: Paid to maintain Warre hives

    OK odfrank you got me.

    I've repeated a bunch of times recently that a langstroth can be operated per Warre methods. Did this in my argument that vertical versus horizontal is the real divide not frames that just have top bars versus wood all the way around frames. (don't complicate things by mentioning no frame/top bars please.)

    So that is kind of your argument against what I said, but I was typing one thing while thinking about methods not the langstroth box.

  15. #15
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    Aug 2011
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    Nashua, NH, USA
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    Default Re: Paid to maintain Warre hives

    Quote Originally Posted by b2bnz View Post
    We would be interested in the specifications of your modified Warre, length, breadth and height , and your planned manipulations for the season.
    OK, with a portable saw mill and 60 acres of woods I have rough cut board laying around from an abandoned project.
    I stole this concept from Anarchy Apiaries when I saw his, its great because you just make four boards one length and screw them together to form a square, only one cut length.

    What I also love about it is that even if you "mess up" there is a wide range that everything will work out, almost anyone could do all of this bye eyeballing the lengths and where to put top bars and it would still work based on the suggested lengths and spacing below. These frames are inspectable (cut box with wire, check to see if there are sidewall connections from below, cut sidewall connection, lift topbar and look at comb, put it back in same space,) but not meant to be interchangeable (Warre wouldn't want you moving comb around.) (Most state regs reference inspectable comb, some reference frames, legal interpretation of every state with that is that a top bar is a frame, you don't need side or bottom bars to meet definition. In normal lingo we say frame when talking fully wooden around versus top bars but that means nothing to legal interpretation so don't get confused these are frames and they are inspectable.)

    First what it could be then what I did:
    For the basic box what it could be:
    thickness between 1"-board to 2" board (this will change your outer dimension but not the inner, boxes are smaller so extra weight not a problem)
    inner dimension 10.25" - 12.25" can work with bee space, Warre is 11.75" Do you have small cell bees?
    board width, wider is better 8"-12"
    length of 4 square sides will be inner dimmension + 2*board thickness (12.25"-16.25")
    I cut all the boards the same length and screw them together in a spiral so each side is one board end and one board length.
    board length: So cut four boards to be inner dimension + 1 board thickness (11.25"-14.25")

    OK so what I did:

    I wanted 11.75" inner dim., it matches Warre and randomly the needlessly complex frame spacing I use.
    Outside dimension 14.75" sq 10" high (10" is close to Warre's metric and I had it)

    Cut 1.5" by 10" boards to 10 13.25" lengths
    and screw boards in a spiral to form a square like this:

    ------------------- |
    |..........top bar......|
    |..........top bar......|
    |..........top bar......|
    |..........top bar......|
    |..........top bar......|
    |..........top bar......|
    |..........top bar......|
    |..........top bar......|
    |_________________

    Then taking scrap pieces (unused edges from langstroth frames is the size, much thinner and less wide than a kenyan hTBH or a hoffman selfspacing frame in your langstroth, thinner is better as its bees will keep the comb going from one frame to the other, you cut the boxes with a wire and less sidewall attachments then you would think and as 11.75 inner dim doesn't need much of a frame top bar.) snipped top bars to inner dimension.

    staple two against opposite sides to make frame rest (set in thickness of top bar and one bee space)

    Then you could either eyeball wedging the top bars across (if you leave a tad bit long or wax down) or have something with the spacing on them. using metric warre wasn't thinking 1.5" but its close even division is ~1.5 between top bar mid points and .75" to side. I on the other hand think the brood in the center frames does better with 1.25" spacing and outside frames will get honey (I know its all honey when it gets moved up,) so I give them 1.5" spacing for the outer two top bars. the space from the out top bar to the side would be 15/16" (half of the 1.5" spacing = .75 plus half a bee space = 3/16) but I round that to 1". So I mark a board with where the top bars should go. From interios side board:
    interior side, 1" bar midpoint, 1.5" bar midpoint, 1.5" bar midpoint, 1.25" bar midpoint, 1.25" bar midpoint, 1.25" bar midpoint, 1.5" bar midpoint, 1.5" bar midpoint, 1" interior side
    if you want identical spacing work it out yourself or heck like I said eyeball it till the eight bars look evenly spaced.

    For inspectability I use topbar frames every box. To start package use two boxes. Have 6 made min. (one for feeder/insulator)

    For bottom had scrap plywood, cut 14.75" square then put down 3/8" high strips on back and sides and I throw in 1/4" hardware cloth as permanent mouse guard with sharp ends up to scratch skunk paws.

    Instead of fancy gabled roof with vents and complicated quilt I cut open cell ridged sound insulation board (~ $1 absorbes water and bees can suck it out, and breaths) to the dimension of top of box. cut hole in center to put pail feeder above for packages (don't plan to feed sugar after year 1 ever, leave honey but packages aren't as good as a similar size swarm and swarms only get 25% overwinter in wild so first year feed.) I bought epoxy coated paint cans ($3) and the feeder screen plug-betterbee $1.50 sells to make my own feeder but a 1 gallon plastic pail should fit.

    For top bought 16" tile ($3) Buy whatever is >15" for whatever color.

    So take bottom, put 2 boxes on it, add insulation board, add another box, put feeder pail in this box, ratchet strap down to cinder blocks or pallet, put tile on top.

    Thats it. If clients want to paint outside of spare boxes, they get nadired in later. Personally rough cut lumber small boxes don't look like hives and cause less issues then a big white Langstroth. (nadiring isn't just for Warre philisophical reasons, if you go foundationless in a langstroth you should nadir to draw the comb out as how would the bees get to the top if supering if no foundation?)
    Last edited by HiveAtYourHome; 02-17-2012 at 11:25 PM.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    May 2002
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    San Mateo, CA
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    4,650

    Default Re: Paid to maintain Warre hives

    Arguing the merits of Langstroth, Warre or Topbar with a devoted user of either, is like arguing with the Jehovah's Witness who push their particular religion going door to door. Niether of you are likely to change your religion or agree that the other person is right.

  17. #17
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    Jul 2006
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    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    Default Re: Paid to maintain Warre hives

    Quote Originally Posted by HiveAtYourHome View Post
    (nadiring isn't just for Warre philisophical reasons, if you go foundationless in a langstroth you should nadir to draw the comb out as how would the bees get to the top if supering if no foundation?)
    ...you could nadir, and you should if you are trying to manage a lang like warre...but otherwise I disagree.

    Space above the colony is treated differently than space below.

    If you can't be bothered to do anything other than toss an empty box of foundationless frames above the colony, then they will make a mess of things...but they will (like all space added above the established colony) fill it in earnest....they will expand downwards as they need the room if it is available...but it's no where near the same effect. They won't fill the space below as quickly, it won't distract them from swarming as much as space above. Adding space above or below is not swarm control.

    There is nothing "natural" about adding more volume to an existing colony..above or below. ...this is the primary manipulation that beekeepers use to redirect the natural urge to swarm into an increased honey yield. Adding the room above (empty, foundation, comb, or a combination) leaves the bees in the unnatural situation of having empty space above the colony....their natural reaction to this unnatural situation is to "repair" their nest (which is generally built and filled from the top down). Nadering adds volume but does not stimulate the need to repair, to build or fill empty comb above the established colony.

    Warre beekeepers tend to pride themselves on their desire to cause swarms. I get the point, but in a city? Only visited 3 times a year? To paying customers with neighbors? Without insurance?

    Who is going to pay to cutout swarms from the neighbors home? Have you ever kept bees in your modified warre hive? Did they swarm?

    I don't mean to be hard on you Kagen, but I think you are getting in over your head. No one will be happy if unattended hives swarm in the city. Beekeepers won't support you if you are willing to be paid to maintain the hives, but unwilling to take reasonable care to prevent swarming.

    deknow

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
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    Cookeville, TN
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    138

    Default Re: Paid to maintain Warre hives

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    Arguing the merits of Langstroth, Warre or Topbar
    Hehe, I've noticed that From my limited experience with my Langsroth and Topbar they both have advantages and disadvantages. I will try a Warre eventually just so I can make an informed opinion on all of them.

  19. #19
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Paid to maintain Warre hives

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Warre beekeepers tend to pride themselves on their desire to cause swarms. I get the point, but in a city? Only visited 3 times a year? To paying customers with neighbors? Without insurance?
    Yes that's a question I would like to direct to Warre beekeepers, in Warre method, what is the attitude to swarming? Is any attempt made to control it? Or is it seen as something that should be allowed to happen?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
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    Nashua, NH, USA
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    Default Re: Paid to maintain Warre hives

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    swarming.

    deknow
    The Warre's in very rural areas will be kept strong as thats the only folks who really need intense pollination for farming plots. Installing swarm boxes and having swarms in a remote field surrounded by woods is not the end of the world.

    In the city I plan to do walk-away splits, keeping weak hives, I'm willing to suffer low honey yields. I doubt people will mind if they get two hives, and if they only want one, the I'll take the other one elsewhere. Finding the balance to get them strong enough to overwinter, but weakening through splitting as early as possible to try to avoid swarming (but late enough to maintain numbers to keep cluster temperature.) Customers informed of this, and for the most part more urban folks just want a hive, its ok with them thats its not a monster, they agree they'd rather have a timid hive that is not a swarm generator even if it has far fewer pollination potential. A farmer on the other hand doesn't really see the use of a new package or newly split warre. (In fact the farm near me will get established Langs using 3 deeps for brood/overwintering and honey only taken from above.)

    My question for urban and suburban beekeeping is does anyone think that you can do a better job preventing swarming than keeping Warres weak by walk away splits and choosing a lower honey yield?

    One advantage of the fraught early for north queen rearing is migratory brought drones won't be here yet, more matings are better but only the strongest winter proven hives will have any drones flying. Better DNA Lower amount of drones, potential less matings Not worried about volume (duration queen will keep laying) but about diversity of sister lines within hive as recent studies being/soon to be released have shown better performance in many aspects with hives with more lines.
    Last edited by HiveAtYourHome; 02-18-2012 at 01:10 PM.

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