Is Warre legal?

[Bush_84]

Yeah it looks like fixed bars like Warre described in his books are illegal. I'm going to try to figure out some sort of simple peg system to comply with the law, though I'm still going to deal with the bees on a (hands off) box basis.

I have heard of some that cut the head off the nail. That way the bar car slip in and out of the nail.

[forgeblast]

if you look here this is the size i use, you can see they have no head, and the bar can slip easy
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/200...auge-5000.aspx

[Zonker]

I watched the Heathland Traditional German Bee keeping videos (which were assume) and noticed that they have a specific tool to inspect in skeps. Its sort of a flat hooked blade on the end of a long probe. They just inserted the knife a removed a square of the comb. I wonder if having the tool would buy any forgiveness if the apiarist showed up.

[HiveAtYourHome]

Warre style hives can be legal throughout USA.
Warre style hives are legal in the first 10 states I checked regulations for (northeast), been told numerous times legal everywhere in USA. That is it can be legal, Don't nail in a way that you can't get top bar frame to move. Then again its the same things that would make a Langstroth illegal (don't nail frames in permanently, comb management,) although your Warre may draw more attention for inspection, but what state is tracking down hobby beekeepers today? The inspector I knew well doesn't inspect as his state dropped bee inspectors entirely.

Its the "inspectable comb" or the "inspectable frame" (top bars count legally as frames, so do half enclosed and fully enclosed frames) that is the type needed. Some reference the type, most all reference the action of inspection. So no gum, skep, barbecue grill is ever allowed but what is important is the management as all types of hives can become illegal if non-inspectable.

Management of a Warre style hive, Langstroth, hTBH really determines the whether you are OK are not. Some states just say they must be inspectable, a few reference if they are found not to be you have time X to transfer the hive to an inspectable state/other hive body.

So absolutely CAN be legal. Its the CAN part.

[Michael Bush]

>Then again its the same things that would make a Langstroth illegal

Yes but the definition of a Langstroth would be that they are not nailed down, and the definition of a Warre' by Warre, is that they are... but I agree. Make that one minor adjustment and they are.

[greengecko]

Nailed down? Not actually. Warré wrote, "Once the top-bars are thus in place they are fixed in the rebate with a small headless pin such as a glazier's pin."

topbar.jpg

The small headless pin maintains the top-bar spacing. The top-bars of a Warré hive can be easily lifted for inspection.

[sqkcrk]

So they are used like a frame spacer? Or are they under the end of the top bar?

[greengecko]

So they are used like a frame spacer? Or are they under the end of the top bar?

They are used as a spacer. They are not used to "nail down" or otherwise permanently attach the top-bar.

[sqkcrk]

I got the not nailed down thing. Thanks. I just thought, perhaps, the headless brad was under the end of the top bar so the frames wouldn't shift. Thank you for clearing that up for me and explaining that they are used as spacers. Makes sense. Makes them easily removed and inspectable which puts Warres inside the Law. Which answers the Thread Title question.

[HiveAtYourHome]

The title question does beg what are we discussing is legal, the Warre as a total system, exact design and management style, or just the design or a design close to it. This isn't so confusing when people say Langstroth as they usually don't mean his management; and maybe that is why its usually tricksome when people are comparing the two, its further than apples and oranges, its a cider producing facility and an orange slice comparison.

Hence one deviation in design (the nail thing, even if it wasn't a deviation) is discussed as whether its still Warre, (that and Warre devotes strict adherence,) while on the other hand - when you say Langstroth, you usually have Hoffman self spacing frames (~50 years after Langstroth's patent and book) or even plastic frames, my inner cover and top aren't like his, my screened bottom isn't like his, and if you throw in a frame feeder, beetle trap or other gadget its not like his, the only thing my hive that is like I see in his patent and two books is the inner dimensions of a box, but I've yet to have anyone claim my Langstroth hives aren't Langstroths, while I've given up calling my Warresque/modified Warres as Warres as that gets jumped over as not really Warre, so they are just my alternative vertical box hives with topbar frames. I haven't even mentioned management, while their is a lot of great wisdom in The Hive and the Honey-Bee and Langstroth on the Honey Bee, strict adherence to his guidance is not expected when talking Langstroth where it seems most often to be for Warre and Beekeeping For All.

I assumed the original question is "does the design of a Warre hive meet legal requirements," and people have put forth: yes the Warre design is legal.

However I usually assume the word Warre used by itself indicates the complete paired Warre management and Warre design as that is how most have responded to me when I just use the word Warre with no caveats, I also assume that design is always less important then management it seems both in law and bees.

hmm to muddy an already answered question...