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Thread: Is Warre legal?

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Is Warre legal?

    It is a "post hoc ergo proctor hoc" (after this therefore because this) argument if you claim it as fact, but AFB really became a problem when they got removable comb, so it's not an unreasonable theory.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Is Warre legal?

    Granted that is the way it seems to appear to have happened, but, I wonder if it would not have been so anyway because of the boom in colonies per apairy and revolutions in transportation? Afterall, didn't AFB blossom from the proximity of large numbers of hives? Granted we had numbers of hives in apiaries before, but these were log gums and skeps whose usual method of harvest was to destroy the hive or at least the honeycomb, which was rendered to use the honey and the wax.

    Which makes me wonder when wax became a by product of honey production rather than the main product? In the early 1700s, in Virginia, wax was listed as a "Colonial Product" in the Governors Report. Whereas no mention of honey. Which may indicate something. It says to me that honey was not a commodity in Colonial Virginia and wax was.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Is Warre legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    but AFB really became a problem when they got removable comb,
    Are you suggesting cause and effect? The AFB epidemic came decades after the advent of removable frames. Dr. Shimanuki writes in "Honey Bee Pests, Predators, & Diseases" that the advent of movable frames probably introduced a major means of transmission." and that "Concern about American Foulbrood disease in the United states resulted in the establishment of today's apiary inspection programs."

    Should we, as a peoples not as an industry, return to the use of nonmovable frames or comb w/in a mostly movable frame society? Is that the socialy respoinsible thing to do, considering AFB's presence?

    How do Warre Hive beekeepers deal w/ AFB? How is it detected? By smell? Since it appears as though combs are not removed for visual inspection.

    How are new colonies made? How does one "split" or "nuc" a Warre Hive?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Is Warre legal?

    It says to me that honey was not a commodity in Colonial Virginia and wax was.

    I am wondering if wax was a higher commodity due to everyone needing candles. The honey would have been kept for its sugar content.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Is Warre legal?

    That was my first assumption or wonder too. Then I saw that it was noted as an exported item. Exported to Madera. Where, I suspect, it was used in the wine industry, which Madera was so well known for, in some capacity.

    Beeswax was at the bottom of the list of Gross Colonial Product (read Gross National Product equivalent) Lumber, Tobacco, Coal, and something else I don't recall being the other 4 items reported. Iron Ore maybe.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Is Warre legal?

    Do you have a book or link that lists the products, I would be interested in reading what we were shipping. I would think that raw cotton, would have been big, since they did not allow mills for processing to be built here.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Is Warre legal?

    Cotton didn't become big until the 1800s, I believe.

    I did my research when I worked at Colonial Williamsburg back in 1979 to 1984. I have my notes and a bee talk somewhere, but am mostly going from memory. I'm sorry to say I can't suggest an information source. Maybe if you could find a really good history book on the colonial history of the Virginia Colony, but I don't know one. Maybe contact Colonial Williamsburg's Reasearch Dept.? They should be glad to answer questions.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Is Warre legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Are you suggesting cause and effect? The AFB epidemic came decades after the advent of removable frames. Dr. Shimanuki writes in "Honey Bee Pests, Predators, & Diseases" that the advent of movable frames probably introduced a major means of transmission." and that "Concern about American Foulbrood disease in the United states resulted in the establishment of today's apiary inspection programs."

    Should we, as a peoples not as an industry, return to the use of nonmovable frames or comb w/in a mostly movable frame society? Is that the socialy respoinsible thing to do, considering AFB's presence?

    How do Warre Hive beekeepers deal w/ AFB? How is it detected? By smell? Since it appears as though combs are not removed for visual inspection.

    How are new colonies made? How does one "split" or "nuc" a Warre Hive?
    I have removed comb in a Warre with standard top bars and I'm a noob. As long as you use good comb guides the bees will tend to create comb that you can remove with care, but that isn't to say that something as basic as smell should be ignored either. You can also inspect brood in the way that skeps were inspected by pushing aside combs to inspect. If there is concern that something is not right then you could always cut a sample. Then there is also the option of altering the top bars in some fashion (half frames or full frames). Then you could easily remove comb. Here are some links of people who are using these frames.

    http://warre.biobees.com/denis.htm

    http://milkwood.net/2010/11/16/bringing-home-the-bees/

    I am personally going to use a mix of half frames and top bars this year to see what I prefer.

    Splitting and finding the queen is possible in Warre hives. Finding the queen is done with an excluder, assuming you don't have removable frames. Splitting is typically done by the box. Warre outlines a few different methods in his book, but some are outlined in the link below.

    http://warre.biobees.com/splits.htm

    Most of the techniques are basically smoking the bees down into the lower boxes, removing the top box (must be brood in box) and putting it in the original location. You take the boxes with the queen and move them to a different location. The queen will continue to lay. The foragers will return to the hive without the queen in the original location. You can then let the bees make their own queen, give them a queen cell (if available), or install a queen. Warre also outlines ways to split using two colonies, which reduces the impact on the mother colonies.

    I would say that running Warre nucs is possible. I know that there are a few commercial Warre apiaries in France and they breed their own queens. It seems that they use frames for such practices, but typically stick with top bars for their production colonies from what I recall. But if you want to make nucs a single box would probably suffice. If you want to run it like a Lang nuc then you will have to modify the top bars in some fashion as most of those practices revolve around easily removable frames, but then again something as simple as half frames might do the trick.

    I hope this answers your questions.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Is Warre legal?

    Thanks.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Is Warre legal?

    I'm not claiming that AFB was caused by or even related to removable frames, just that regulation seems to be ineffective. More of a desperate gesture than an actual solution. I guess I think that insects adapt very rapidly and that lots of bee hives allowed to live and die on their own might be as effective a treatment as anything we have tried so far.

    As far as my colonies I don't feed or medicate. I split strong hives and ignore dying hives to hopefully come up with decease resistant stock.

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Is Warre legal?

    Well you could argue that the live and let die method would work to encourage tolerance to Varroa and tracheal mites, but this line of thinking does not apply to AFB. I believe the countries with the lowest incidence of AFB are the countries that across the board burn everything at the first sign of AFB. They do not mess with saving the bees/equipment. I want to say Sweden does this and has an extremely low incidence of AFB, but somebody should correct me if that's incorrect.

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Is Warre legal?

    I'd like to see some more explanation of keeping 'deceased' bees. It would sure eliminate worries about disease.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
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  13. #33
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    Default Re: Is Warre legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zonker View Post
    I'm not claiming that AFB was caused by or even related to removable frames, just that regulation seems to be ineffective. More of a desperate gesture than an actual solution. I guess I think that insects adapt very rapidly and that lots of bee hives allowed to live and die on their own might be as effective a treatment as anything we have tried so far.

    As far as my colonies I don't feed or medicate. I split strong hives and ignore dying hives to hopefully come up with decease resistant stock.
    How effective would reulation have to be to be effective above wht you see as ineffective? As far as AFB is concerned, just about the only disease which is regulated, percentages of hives w/ AFB are well below 5% in States w/ robust inspection services.

    But, maybe you are refering to other pests and diseases? Varroa have killed more colonies than AFB ever has in all recorded history, yet you can have as many as you want w/out fear from Inspectors. The same w/ Nosema and viruses. But, what can those who regulate do? Nothing more than they are already doing, except perhaps Teaching beekeepers on how to deal w/ these pests and diseases.

    I hope you do more than ignore dying colonies. They are the ones which may well have AFB. Something you would want to know before your strong colonies rob out the dead hives.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Is Warre legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    I'd like to see some more explanation of keeping 'deceased' bees. It would sure eliminate worries about disease.
    Which Post was that in? You aren't taking my job, are you?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Is Warre legal?

    I guess there are certainly examples of regulation/inspection working (i.e. polio, smallpox, hoof and mouth disease) so maybe inspections are good idea, but I still wish Warre's were legal

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Is Warre legal?

    They aren't illegal, are they?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Is Warre legal?

    >Are you suggesting cause and effect? The AFB epidemic came decades after the advent of removable frames.

    I am suggesting that possibility, yes. Am I saying it is? No. But moving frames between hives is much more likely to spread AFB than anything else.

    > Dr. Shimanuki writes in "Honey Bee Pests, Predators, & Diseases" that the advent of movable frames probably introduced a major means of transmission."

    Exactly.

    >Should we, as a peoples not as an industry, return to the use of nonmovable frames or comb w/in a mostly movable frame society? Is that the socialy respoinsible thing to do, considering AFB's presence?

    I'm not suggesting that.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Is Warre legal?

    Yeah it looks like fixed bars like Warre described in his books are illegal. I'm going to try to figure out some sort of simple peg system to comply with the law, though I'm still going to deal with the bees on a (hands off) box basis.

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Is Warre legal?

    hehe you could always velcro them in place, it would hold them and yet you could still take them out.

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Is Warre legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zonker View Post
    I'm still going to deal with the bees on a (hands off) box basis.
    Then why spend the money on a Warre Hive? Just buy a Langstroth Deep Box, a bottom board, an inner cover and a cover? If you are just going to be a behaver.

    BeWarre.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

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