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How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?

16K views 45 replies 21 participants last post by  robherc 
#1 ·
How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?

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I don't want this to turn into a whole Langstroth vs top bar blowup. To each his own, and I fully respect that, as I am sure you all do as well. In fact, I'm sure many of you top bar hivists also dabble in Langtroths as well.

However, I thought the following response in my local forums was a cheap-shot to discourage many onlookers of whom I was trying to sway my way in the top bar method and philosophy.

I responded - although not to ALL his points - mostly just in general.

I would love for some of you to either respond directly or respond here to some of his points.

And by the way, for all I know, the person could be a member here.

Here's the link direct to his comment:

http://www.polkmoms.com/forum/topic...042717:Comment:166283&xg_source=msg_com_forum

If that link doesn't work, try this and scroll down to a response by Rob Fullwood.

http://www.polkmoms.com/forum/topic..._forum&id=5042717:Topic:84616&page=4#comments

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#2 ·
Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?

What do you take issue with? I pretty much agree with him, except for one thing - clearly you are already committed to using a top bar hive. I don't really see any reason for you to change gears at this point. Just consider the almost univeral advice to start with at least two hives - and also consider building a nuc or two as well. Build everything so that the parts will swap of course.

I will say this - my top bar hive is just as likely to sting me as any other hive. Maybe I'm to poor of a bee keeper to tell the difference.

BTW - nice job on the hive, and the blog.
 
#3 ·
Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?

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Thanks, David.

I don't know. I kind of felt his whole tone was rather condescending and a back-handed attempt to belittle me and top bar hives in general.

Don't get me wrong, much of what he said was spot-on. But I could sense some knife-twisting as well.

I don't know. Maybe I'm just being paranoid.

.
 
#4 ·
Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?

Tone and motive are hard to tell in text messages, unlike in person communication where body language and vocal inflection tell you more. So, yeah, maybe you are taking offense when none was intended. But, also, maybe you are correct in your interpretation.

Which way of looking at it makes you happiest? I'd go w/ assuming good intent on behalf of the replier. It's better for you.
 
#5 ·
Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?

You're lucky to have such a well informed, articulate writer posting on your blog. He obviously spent a great deal of time and energy communicating many very important points. Any new (or not so new) beekeeper would be well served by reading his comments more than once as well as printing out a copy for future reference.

"Swaying people your way in the top bar method and philosophy" shouldn't be difficult when you are able to demonstrate your own success.

Ramona
 
#7 ·
Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?

let us know how the no smoker thing goes, sometimes they are indispensable. i did notice your quote mentioned the bees need for love and the distress the caged queen was in because she wasn't getting any. that is a different way of thinking about bees! I hope it all works out for you
 
#8 ·
Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?

I woudl say you have to look at yourself for what you saw in his post. I read the entire thing and didn't see a thing wrong with it.
Top Bars are not a cure all. They may not be the best start for a new keeper, and they do have issues of their own. They are still an artificial environment to keep bees in and I don't get even the suggestion that they will cause bees to be calmer. That one just seems a bit suspicious as far as a claim would go. Maybe there is an advantage that a newb would not be ticking the bees off as much by fumbling around.
So I could just repeat what Mark B said above.
And yes Mark, We do agree far more than you might think. Including that I may very well just be another newb hell bent on destruction. I realize that. But I'm enjoying the view while it still looks rosy. Check back in a year, after I've ticked off a few hives. Most likely setting right here with my bees dead. Well see if those glasses have gotten slapped off my face by then.
 
#9 ·
Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?

I agree with sqkcrk about tone and motive in text. The English language is so complicated that tone and inflection can drastically change the meaning of the same words.

Having said that, I interpreted his post as just trying to be helpful. As you probably already know, there are lots of different ways to keep bees, and experienced beeks have found what works for them in their area of the country, and base their advice on that experience. My advise would be to read everything you can, keep an open mind, don't rule anything out, and see what works for you.

I wish you the best of luck.

Beev
 
#10 ·
Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?

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The gentleman made a point in his posts about how I should have a 2nd top bar hive on hand in case the growth of the population out-paces the size of the hive.

If this were to happen, how do you go about splitting them up or transferring them to another top bar hive?

What about the queen(s)?

Is it a matter of taking brood top bars and honey/pollen out of the original hive and placing them in the new hive and introduce a brand new purchased queen?

Is it also in reference to catching the swarm when they come out into a nearby tree or structure?

Thanks.
 
#16 ·
Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?

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The gentleman made a point in his posts about how I should have a 2nd top bar hive on hand in case the growth of the population out-paces the size of the hive.

If this were to happen, how do you go about splitting them up or transferring them to another top bar hive?

What about the queen(s)?

Is it a matter of taking brood top bars and honey/pollen out of the original hive and placing them in the new hive and introduce a brand new purchased queen?

Is it also in reference to catching the swarm when they come out into a nearby tree or structure?

Thanks.
There are many Lang management techniques that can be applied to the TBH like making splits swarm control etc... Reading up on these will help with options that will work for you. A split can be as simple as removing the queen and a few brood combs of bees placing them in another hive several feet from the original hive. The original hive is likely to raise a new queen. Timing is also important.

You can look at the smoker as a way to give the bees a heads up (or down depending on your view) just as you do with young children when you give the "we are leaving the park in five minutes" instead of just taking them out without warning and them fighting it. Just lighting the smoker in the yard many times is all that is needed.

In my view the number one objective concerning the TBH is to have the bees build their combs following the guides so that you can work the hive. Everything else is a matter of learning how/what you need to know and will/can be learnt over time. Without the hive being workable you won't be able to apply much of any strategy. A main issue I see with TBH's is the lack of understanding how natural comb differs from foundation combs. Once you've got a handle on this everything else will fall into place as you learn about your bees.

Stick with your plan but also be open to make changes so that you and the bees are working together.
 
#11 ·
Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?

Patbeek, I'm over in Valrico, about 20 miles west of you. I also have a TBH.
He does have some valid points and I do not think he was trying to down the TBH. They are different than a lang, but still the same.
I have built a small TBH like you have and now have a four footer. The small one will grow quicker than you think it will. Build another one just like it, transfer some of the top bars with brood and honey from the full one and install it in the new one. Let the new hive raise their own queen if you like.
If you like, I could e-mail you a phone number if you have any questions or you are welcome to come and check my TBH out.
I have found that most people with langs are set with them and they have no desire to fool with a TBH. At this time I have both.
Robert
 
#12 ·
Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?

RE Jones,

Thanks so much for the info and contact info. Yes, you are right next door to me, almost.

Regarding allowing the new hive to raise their own queen, does that mean I would have to make sure I transferred top bars that included supercedures?
 
#13 ·
Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?

Yes, you would need to transfer a queen cell to the new hive.
They will not try to swarm untill they get too crowded or honey bound, that is when this usually happens.
I found that the small hive I built, would be good for a small swarm for a time. I built the big one and installed a swarm last October and in three weeks they had built comb on 10 bars. They are now on bar 20. I still have plenty of room for them, but I also have a small TBH nuc that I built just in case.
Robert
 
#14 ·
Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?

I agree with what has been posted above but would like to add that the hive in your picture is far too small.The bees will outgrow it quickly.I would suggest one at least twice as long.
 
#17 ·
Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?

I also though that the post was well thought out and written. My advice is that you don't drawl conclusions or condemn something you haven't experienced... That is a fast way to failure... If you already have your mind made up about something and are unwilling to resort to it if necessary, you will surely fail.

I can comment on eating bees: They taste bad and have stingers :D... However, bee brood is quite tasty, drone brood is the best, providing you don't mind cleaning a few mites off sometimes.... They taste like honey coated almond only no crunch.

Given the "naturalistic" tendency you seem to be leaning towards; you should consider 1 more point. Honey bees are terrible for the environment. They are great from an agriculture point of view, but they are detrimental to the natural environment. They displace natural pollinators, they compete with them for food, and they are not suited well for pollination of many native plants. It is unknown how many species of natural pollinators and native plants have gone extinct since the introduction of the honey bee, but many naturalists estimate it in the 100s.. If environmental protection is your goal you should consider bubble bees or mason bees.
 
#20 ·
Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?

Air filled or helium? heh, heh. :) Good advice bluegrass.
Hope it doesn't sound condescending? I am trying to be helpful. I may preach against various practices in apiculture, but if it comes down to loosing the hive or treating/feeding, or whatever... I do what ever I need to to save the hive.

And going honey hunting without smoke can be insanity.... it is so simple even the cave men knew to do it. And I have tried just using sugar water or water and lemongrass oil. ( I didn't have dry fuel for the smoker)

I have also used TBH and they like smoke too.
 
#19 ·
Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?

I read the person's comments on your blog and found them to be solid, and I didn't see them as condescending. I also believe that hive is too small. I have two 4 footers here, and I wouldn't go any smaller. I have seen a lot of criticism aimed at tbh's which was ill-informed, but the post you're talking about is not. Looks like thoughtful input.

I get the sense that most people who decide a smoker doesn't work, or who decide they've found something "better" than smoke, or find that smoke just angers their bees, are also people who never used it for long enough to know what they were doing. From what I can tell, for most beginners, just lighting one and keeping one lit is too much work to want to bother with. I've been trying to stick with it and learn how best to use it, and slowly I have begun to see it as an art to be mastered.

I taught university for a number of years. I noticed that there is often a tendency among students to try to "learn" faster, by convincing themselves that a lot of what they don't know or understand is not worth knowing or understanding. I see a lot of people doing that with smoke.

I'm just a beginner myself. I think a lot. I have a lot of opinions, and I have a certain amount of experience. But I don't "know" much of anything for sure about bees...

...other than the fact that they really fascinate me, and I want to learn more. You've built a beautiful hive. Take in more information and enjoy planning and building the next one. You can always use more of them...

Adam
 
#21 ·
Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?

I read through the post as I am a one TBH beekeeper with 150 Langs. The TBH has been nothing but frustration, but I cannot say I have the experience to make it work...yet. I have no plans of converting, but I thought I should be open enough to give it a try and report my findings. I found out I haven't learned how to make it work...yet.

I didn't think the post was condescending, just sharing an opinion...kind of like 99% of the other stuff that floats around here on beesource.

All the best,

Grant
Jackson, MO
 
#22 ·
Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?

Hi Pat,

Looking at the pics of your hive, i think it is inevitable that if the bees perform normally, they will outgrow the hive. You then either split it, or it swarms.

At it's most basic, a hive split can be done by moving the hive a few yards away and putting a new empty one on the old location. Then take at least one comb with eggs in it from the moved hive and put it into the new hive. Brush the bees off to ensure you left the queen behind. Enough bees will return to the old location to get the hive going again, and turn one of those eggs into a new queen, which will take around a month.

There are numerous ways to split a hive and some other ways are more reliable, but the above way is probably one of the most simple.

The lack of expansion potential is one of the biggest drawbaks of top bar hives. Some folks get around this by designing a top bar hive that can have another box added on top, for the bees to expand into and store honey in, on a seasonal basis. This does present some design challenges, and requires that some of the top bars are modified to allow the bees to move up between them. It also removes some of the simplicity of the top bar design. But it will allow the bees more room if they need it, and greatly enhance their ability to provide you with a good honey surplus.
 
#23 ·
Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?

All of these replies are filled with incredible wisdom and patience.

I am very humbled by the willingness to help each other and I also apologize for my initial paranoia which kicked off this thread.

Muchas gracias.
 
#24 ·
Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?

I tend to agree with those who think he's just trying to be helpful. I am also just trying to be helpful. Here's my response.

>CCD is a big problem, but the facts are that no one knows exactly what is causing bees to abscond from their hive. It could be treatments, it could be systemic pesticides, environmental changes, mono-cropping or any other stresses or a mixture of all. Treatment free or top-bar hives aren't the cure-all to CCD that anyone has found out, yet.

True.

>I saw someone mention that a smoker isn't needed in a top bar hive...

The idea of not smoking being better is a mystery to me. Not upsetting the bees with a defensive reaction is less disruptive than setting off a defensive reaction. I would light a smoker. I open a lot of hives without smoke because I need to catch a queen, and not because I think it's better. They still eat honey at the same rate. I don't believe it sets off them eating honey to smoke them. Nor does it make them think their "house is on fire". It just covers the alarm pheromones.

>Gathering your own "unmedicated" swarms: No one can say you're getting an unmedicated, organic line of bees in a wild-caught swarm. This is impossible.

The small bees are almost always wild ones... unless you have a small cell beekeeper nearby...

>I saw the top bar hive you're building and estimate it's probably 2.5 to 3' long.

IMO way too small... make a longer one with the same shape for a hive and use that one for a nuc and to collect swarms... You can swap from the smaller to the longer one when they have the smaller one 80% full...

> If you're going to get into beekeeping, I'd have at least 2 hives to start off with

Definitely. 2 1/2 is even better. Two hives and a nuc gives you some resources.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beespanacea.htm

>and those would be Langstroth.

I would say they should be interchangeable, they don't have to be Langstroths to be interchangeable.

> The reason is; a 3' top bar hive is going to be filled to capacity within a couple of months...

Yes, a 3' top bar hive is probably going to swarm... several times a year...

> With a TBH you're stuck with what you have.

Pretty much.

>You can't expand the hive body to give them more room like you can with a traditional Langstroth hive.

Which is why you need to manage the space well. But you need space in order to manage space...

> I'd also recommend starting with a traditional Langstroth hive as a beginner hive because Langstroth hives are all built with standards that make the frames and boxes easily interchangeable between hives or between boxes of the same hive.

Interchangeability is nice. But if you have several top bar hives with the same width and shape you can interchange them as well.

> bees are much more likely to build a complete mess of comb in a TBH than a Langstroth hive.

I've seen plenty of messed up comb in a Langstroth... but one bad comb leads to another and with no foundation between the frames you may have more messed up comb if you are not on top of things.

> Also, you're going to want to put a door covering the glass of the window. Bees prefer total dark.

And the window will make a great solar wax melter... not good.

> It's a good idea to have an Epi-Pen around just in case.

I saw a picture of one once... ;)

> You can find some "hive placement" ideas online.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfaqs.htm#locating

>Propolis is a mixture of tree resin that bees use to seal things up. It also has disinfectant properties that help the hive's microflora/fauna ecosystem. This isn't something you probably want to eat

I eat it often enough... mostly I chew it...

-------------------------------------------------

>Everyone has a different vision and experiences regarding beekeeping.

Certainly.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesphilosophy.htm

>Just today I passed a huge row of Langstroths on Combee Rd. and noticed they all had the sugar feeders on top for the winter. It reminded me of the whole reason I'm going the less-invasive, less-taxing top bar method.

I don't see Langstroths as any less natural or any less invasive... feeding has nothing to do with the box they are in. It has to do with how good of year it was, if they are light going into winter or if you take too much of their honey. You do yourself and your bees no favors letting them starve.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfeeding.htm

> The bees are supposed to have their honey stores completely raped so they'll have to be fed sugar water over the winter.

That is only one cause of needing to feed. A failed fall flow, a drought, a bad year are other reasons.

> They aren't supposed to be put in chemically-laden wax frames with cells that are actually too big.

Agreed.

> They aren't supposed to have gaping holes opened up to disturb their internal body temperature too drastically.

I don't think the temperature of a brood nest changes much with opening a hive. If anything it goes up a bit from the disturbance and then levels out quickly. But then there is no reason to be getting in the hive constantly anyway once the comb is drawn, especially in a Langstroth. You will have to get in the TBH more often.

>Don't get me wrong, I know Langstroths can be done in a more natural way, but the overall design lends itself to being one of 'The Goose That Laid The Golden Egg' vision of keeping bees rather than allowing them to do things their own way.

Actually I don't think the design is, nor was intended to be, anything but a way to use what the bees do naturally. The way a Langstroth is run today with foundation and all, may be unnatural, but the original Langstroth was foundationless and L.L. Langstroth was very into what the bees naturally do. Rather than fight what the bees do, he decided to figure out what space they would leave so he could have frames that wouldn't be attached. There is no reason you cannot have all the advantages of a top bar hive, other than not lifting boxes and being cheap and easy to build, in a Langstroth.

I've added quite a bit to the TBH page based on recent discussions and the recent article in ABJ.

It is here:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm
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But I will post it here:

Why a top bar hive? Why not a top bar hive?

It seems a lot of people get into top bar hives with a lot of misconceptions. They seem to think that a top bar hive is “natural” and there is no other way to have a natural hive of bees. I’m not exactly sure where this comes from, but I suppose par t of it is that a typical top bar hive has natural comb and a typical Langstroth hive has foundation. But I have seen top bar hives done with foundation, and I have thousands of foundationless frames in Langstroth hives. So if your only reason for going with a top bar hive is to get natural comb, you have other alternatives.

Another is the belief that the shape is more natural. I’d have to say any shape is natural. I’ve seen bees in soffits, gas tanks, walls of houses, floors of houses… bees aren’t particular about the shape. I see nothing more or less natural about a top bar hive.

Another is that you want a horizontal hive. But you can build a horizontal Langstroth hive. I have a few and they do just as well as the top bar hives.

I think the real reason for a top bar hive is that you can build it from scraps for next to nothing AND you get the above benefits, to wit: natural comb, (with both natural cell size and clean chemical free wax) no boxes to lift (horizontal). If you want all of these in one combination, then a top bar hive is for you.
Reasons you might not want a top bar hive.

A top bar hive, because it has a limited and fairly constant space, requires more frequent interventions to manage it well. This is not a problem when it’s in your back yard and you can’t wait to get into the hive. But it’s very inconvenient if it’s somewhere further away where you have to drive there.
Proponent or opponent?

I have been accused of being a top bar proponent most often. I consider myself neither a proponent nor an opponent. I have several and enjoy them a lot. I tell how to build and manage one here for that reason. But if all you want is natural comb, I’d recommend a Langstroth with foundationless frames. If all you want is to get natural comb and no lifting, then I’d put foundationless in a horizontal Langstroth hive. If you also want to be able to build it easily and cheaply I’d recommend a top bar hive.

Typical mistakes I see newbees make with TBH:

They buy a nuc for a TBH that cannot take Langstroth frames.

If you want bees on something other than the cells size or frame size your nucs are available in, then you should buy a package. Yes, you’ll find some “chop and crop” videos out there that make it look easy to take a nuc and chop it down to a top bar. Keep in mind these are ideal conditions (wax comb and not plastic which is more likely in your nuc, maybe no wires, or very fragile ones etc.) with an expert doing the work. You will most likely not be so lucky and if you’re a beginner you will (and should) be very intimidated by this undertaking. Probably the newbee's logic is someone told them nucs were better without considering the other ramifications. For some reason the magazines and books seem to assume that everyone wants bees in ten frame deep Langstroths.

They hang the queen cage and get a first messed up comb because of the queen cage.

They will always build the first comb from the cage and subsequent combs parallel to that one. So you have now doomed every comb in your hive to be messed up. Hanging the queen cage to “be safe”, is not “being safe”. Direct release her. Yes, they MIGHT abscond, but in my experience they will do it with or without the queen. Typically they like the one next door better and leave that one there anyway.

They buy or build a TBH that is far too small.

You only have a limited space to work with and no supers to add on, so if you start with a very small TBH it will swarm. Constantly. You need to start with a large one and manage the space well.
They are afraid to fix messed up comb.

One bad comb leads to another. One good comb leads to another. If you have bad comb, wishful thinking will not fix the next comb. It will be messed up unless you make the last comb a straight one by whatever means is necessary. Having a frame you can tie a comb into is good to have. Then you can always create a straight comb. Another solution is to find a straight comb and put it at the point they are building comb and put the messed up comb at the front (assuming you don’t tie it into frames or remove it). Empty bars between drawn brood combs will keep them busy building straight combs. Just don’t spread them too thin. They need to be able to fill that gap with festooning bees quickly.

They harvest all the honey and there is no fall flow and no drawn comb for the bees to put stores in.

I would harvest only a little at a time during the flow and try to leave them plenty for winter. This requires a bit of forethought and you probably are not aware how fast conditions can change. To take an old gun saying “aim small miss small”. Keep in mind when harvesting that with no drawn comb you cannot do last minute feeding where they just fill the drawn comb with syrup. They will not be inclined to draw comb when the weather is cold, late in the season.

If they lose a hive they blame something that is handy, like that it’s a top bar hive, or something they did, which may or may not have made a difference.

Hives die sometimes. Sometimes they cold starve (starve with stores in the hive). Sometimes they just starve (starve with no food in the hive). Sometimes they just dwindle in the fall or end up queenless after a swarm. Try to be objective about what might be the problem. If they outright starved, then you harvested too much or didn’t feed enough. But some things are beyond your control and all the above issues happen in Langstroth hives just as much as Top Bar Hives.

These aren’t so much limited to top bar hives, but seem to be common issues with newbees trying to be natural, which includes people going to top bar hives:

They won’t feed at all.

Feeding is not a “right or wrong” kind of thing. It is the kind of thing that should be done for the right reasons and avoided for the right reasons. Flows are hard to predict and even the bees fail at it sometimes. If you never feed they will starve sooner or later. Feed when you have a reason. If you want natural bees then try to manage them so you don’t have to, but if you mess up and harvest too much or the fall flow fails, feed them. There is nothing productive about letting them starve. Feeding might be unnatural, but harvesting their honey is too. You may have created the problem.

Related to this is you should have a plan on how to feed them. It may take some work and time to implement some of the plans, so have a feeder in mind and make sure you have it on hand.

They won’t smoke at all because they think it upsets the bees.

Of course this is backwards. What upsets the bees is when you open a hive with no smoke or far too much or far too hot of smoke. The right amount of smoke is a proven thing since man first started to work with bees. Contrary to popular belief, I do not think it makes them think their house is on fire. It simply interferes with their sense of smell. If it really made them think their house were on fire, then you would be able to get them to abandon their home because of it. I have never been able to produce enough smoke to make them abandon their home and I tried many times when trying to remove them from trees etc. I have, however been able to make enough to asphyxiate them. Of course that is hundreds of times more smoke than needed to calm them.
 
#25 ·
Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?

Maybe I am different in some way. I have had more trouble with a lang hive than I have with my TBH. The TBH has built beautiful comb on 20 bars with me only having to trim one bar. The lang that I have constantly ties the frames together with comb and I have had to straighten it up four times.
I plan on setting up another lang to see if it is just the bees that I have in the one that is the problem. They came from a "feral" hive that was built on the side of a rock pile. It was messed up when I retreived it. I have since re-queened, but they still build messed up frames.
Robert
 
#27 ·
Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?

I plan on setting up another lang to see if it is just the bees that I have in the one that is the problem. Robert
I think it might be the beekeeper! :)

If the lang is foundationless, the bees do not know they are supposed to build the combs neatly on each frame. It is over to the beekeeper to start them off with comb guides, and then manipulate the combs if they get anything "wrong", so the combs are kept straight.
 
#26 ·
Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?

That has got to be MB's longest post ever.

My only comment is on the "size" Langstroth came up with for his hive.... I think he recycled a wooden wine box which is why frames still fit nicely in wine boxes. Charles Dadant was more into looking at an appropriate amount of space, which is why he went with a larger volume box.

But this is just a theory.
 
#28 ·
Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?

Great post, Michael.

One of the things that really sets you apart as a person a lot of people go to for information, is that you do have experience with top bar hives, and your take is pretty moderate. As you say, you're not a proponent or an opponent. The bottom line is that each approach offers different pros and cons, and the individual beekeeper and scenario will come with different needs.

I'm glad you wrote the additional information for the top bar section of your site.

Adam
 
#29 ·
Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?

Oldtimer, the frames are not foundationless, they are plastic that have been coated with wax. They are shoved together as tight as I can get them, and they still attach about four inches of comb between the frames, tieing them together.

I have tried everything that I know(not much) and everything that people have told me, and still they continue to do this. Maybe it is the beekeeper, and maybe I should concentrate on TBH's instead of langs??? I see to have better luck with them.

As soon as I get some more bees, we will be trying another lang.
Robert
 
#33 ·
Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?

Oldtimer, the frames are not foundationless, they are plastic that have been coated with wax. They are shoved together as tight as I can get them, and they still attach about four inches of comb between the frames, tieing them together.

I have tried everything that I know(not much) and everything that people have told me, and still they continue to do this. Maybe it is the beekeeper, and maybe I should concentrate on TBH's instead of langs??? I see to have better luck with them.

As soon as I get some more bees, we will be trying another lang.
Robert
Oh, that's the bees telling you what they think of plastic, rather than build on it they have been trying to squeeze comb in between.

Give them something a bit more natural, like normal beeswax foundation, and your problem will go away.
 
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