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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
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    Pike, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    287

    Default One piece pierco frames and SHB

    I recently aquired a bunch of pierco frames from another beekeeper who has gone out. The frames have been used and need to be scraped and rewaxed(I would say they are around 8 years old but not used for more then two).

    As I begin going through this effort in my spare time, I am looking at the edges of these frames and notice the chanels that run along. Looks like beetles could hide in there possibly. Have any of you experienced issues with this in areas where SHB is prevolent?
    Beleive me this job is time consuming enough and hard to justify so if there are negatives to these frames regarding beetles, I'll offer them to someone else who doesn't mind working with them.

    Thanks for your input

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Montgomery, Tx
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    162

    Default Re: One piece pierco frames and SHB

    They're terrible, you dont want them. Please send them to me.

    Just kidding. I strictly use one piece black Pierco frames on all my new hives because they save a ton of time when it comes to assembly. There is no assembly and the bees take right to them. The only 'con' I have heard is that some people have trouble with them in their de-cappers. As far as hive beetles, if I compare my pierco framed hives to some of my older wooden frame hives w/ plastic foundation - I don't really see a difference in SHB population. My bees keep them at bay as long as I keep my hives in full sun. Seems like the beetles cant handle the heat.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Hampton CT
    Posts
    360

    Default Re: One piece pierco frames and SHB

    I don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but hive beetles could be the least of your problems. It is always a bad idea to reuse someone else's old equipment. The reason is American Foulbrood. Unless you have absolute confidence in the health of the previous bees that were on those combs, burn them! The spores for AFB can live for decades and after you have invested in new bees and then drawn new combs, the bees will develop AFB. I realize that equipment is expensive but AFB is more common than most beekeepers want to admit and once you have it the only cure is burning the hive. Please don't pass these frames on to some one else.

    This is also the reason why I advise people to be EXTREMELY carefull when buying nucs. With the shortage of packages lately, I have heard numerous reports of AFB coming along with nucs made up from large producers that have covered it up with antibiotics.

    Adam Fuller, azapiaries.com

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Great Falls Montana
    Posts
    3,840

    Default Re: One piece pierco frames and SHB

    If the pierco were only used an estimated two years, why do they need scraped down? Are you sure the bees can't clean them up cheaply and easily? They work all night. That is if you decide not to dissolve them in sulfuric acid and burn the residue before calling hazmat to get the residue.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pike, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    287

    Default Re: One piece pierco frames and SHB

    Thanks for the advise. As a previous bee inspector for NY and PA I am very aware of the issues involving used equipment and I agree. In my case, this equipment comes from a known source. What concerns me are the places on the frame where SHB can hide from the bees.

    With the combs setting around for so long not being used it became a bit nasty.

    It's good to know that they will work okay in beetle country.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Faulkner Manitoba, Canada
    Posts
    1,696

    Default Re: One piece pierco frames and SHB

    Quote Originally Posted by adam@azapiaries View Post
    .

    I have heard numerous reports of AFB coming along with nucs made up from large producers that have covered it up with antibiotics.

    Adam Fuller, azapiaries.com
    That is a pretty broad stroked and unfair comment directed at large producers with nothing but rumor to back it up. "I have heard..."

    On topic, the pierco frames have a tendancy to twist in the uncapper sometimes. Having used wax/wood, plastic/wood, and plastic one piece, I prefer the plastic/wood. As to SHB, i have no idea because they are not a problem yet, however, if they were to become a problem, I would more than likely use what we have and either not buy more or relegate them to honey supers only where the chance of pollen is unlikely.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Hampton CT
    Posts
    360

    Default Re: One piece pierco frames and SHB

    Honeyshack

    I don't want to start poking fingers, but, I bought 225 nucs from a very large pollinator/nuc producer with the intention of reselling them. I ended up burning 25 that came down with AFB. Luckily I caught it before selling them. Who knows how many others from that load (other beekeepers bought 200 additional nucs on the load) had the same problems. I have bought and resold thousands of packages over the years and never had a problem. This wasn't an unsubstantiated rumor.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Faulkner Manitoba, Canada
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    1,696

    Default Re: One piece pierco frames and SHB

    Point taken.

    That said however a rather broad stroke was taken at...what was the word?....Oh yes, and i quote...

    "heard numerous reports of AFB coming along with nucs made up from large producers that have covered it up with antibiotics. "

    You problem was with one, and you have bought and sold many in the past. To quote...

    "I have bought and resold thousands of packages over the years and never had a problem"

    Unfair to lump all large producers in with the bad apples. That would be like lumping all nuc re-sellers in the same apple box. There are good and there are bad. I am sure if you are as good at your business as you imply, you would not want to be lumped with the bad sellers.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Hampton CT
    Posts
    360

    Default Re: One piece pierco frames and SHB

    The orrigional point was to be leary of used combs and to under stand that if you are buying nucs, be extremly careful of the source. Check around your bee clubs for other peoples experiences with a given producer. The difference between nucs and packages is that you are buying brood combs. Used brood combs are one of the best ways to get AFB.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
    Posts
    5,254

    Default Re: One piece pierco frames and SHB

    [QUOTE=adam@azapiaries;746943] Check around your bee clubs for other peoples experiences with a given producer./QUOTE]

    I agree with you Adam that buying nucleus colonies can result in disease being brought into your apiary. Looking for help from your bee club is a wise suggestion, but not always a solution. You bought your nucs in 2010. The producer and a Rhode Island beekeeper got together to sell these Florida nucs last summer too. Big discounts if bought through your bee association. $85@. Come on, packages cost $85@.

    You bought those nucs from the big migratory operation, and they crashed. No small wonder. I know the operation. I know the beekeeper. I've had employees who worked for him and I know what he puts in his hives and how often. While he had and inspection certificate, I would say any such paperwork that comes out of Florida is bogus. He shows up in Maine for pollination...6000 colonies with certificate. All colonies inspected on same day...where over the lunch counter?

    These large migratories do have disease issues. Most if not all rely on Tylosin antibiotic to control the AFB in their colonies, and that's their only salvation. Their disease is resistant to Terramycin. I questioned him this past summer at EAS, after he said in a presentation that he replaces all his combs every few years to prevent chemical buildup. And where do you think those combs wind up? In the nucleus colonies he sells you folks. I asked him how he could sell Tylosin bees to unsuspecting hobby beekeepers in the Northeast? Beekeepers who don't even know what Tylosin is. His reply...

    "I don't use Tylosin, as its use is not permitted under the best management practices as put forward by Florida". Hogwash. He doesn't know, and I didn't tell him that I saw his inspection certificate...the AFB in his bees is severely resistant to Terramycin. He HAS to use Tylosin to control AFB in his colonies.

    So while I agree that asking knowledgable beekeepers in your bee club is a good way to get advice, it's not always the case. Too many folks are conflicted, or just don't know the truth.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Hampton CT
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    360

    Default Re: One piece pierco frames and SHB

    Thank you Michael. Adam Fuller

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
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    5,786

    Default Re: One piece pierco frames and SHB

    >>These large migratories do have disease issues. Most if not all rely on Tylosin antibiotic to control the AFB

    That sucks. I know burning is expensive but really, why not control the disease by eliminating the source of infection.
    Thats how good old mother nature use to do it, thanks to wax moths
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
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    5,254

    Default Re: One piece pierco frames and SHB

    I guess some operations have relied on antibiotics for so long that AFB in endemic in their nives. To stop medicating now would be a huge problem.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pike, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    287

    Default Re: One piece pierco frames and SHB

    I think this is exactly why you should know the beekeeper or get a solid recommendation before purchasing NUCs

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Lebanon.PA
    Posts
    136

    Default Re: One piece pierco frames and SHB

    As for the channels running along the edges of pierco, my bee's tend to propolis them all shut. As for taking the time to reuse old pierco frames I don't. I burn the old ones. For the time spent scraping them I find it easier and more cost effective to start with new.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pike, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    287

    Default Re: One piece pierco frames and SHB

    I know what you mean about the time spent scraping the frames, I'm also recoating them with fresh wax. I just can't seem to throw them out. I did put a bunch out last year and the bees did a great job building out the frames.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    pomfret, ct,USA
    Posts
    163

    Default Re: One piece pierco frames and SHB

    Papar sorry to go off topic-

    Gotta say it's a bit unsettling (being nice here ) to know that AFB infested NUCS were within a mile or two of my yard.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Lebanon.PA
    Posts
    136

    Default Re: One piece pierco frames and SHB

    They could be used to make drone frames by cutting the centers out. I've done that with new frames (left about an inch around the outside) and it worked well for getting drone comb. That would save the cost of new frames and provide needed drone frames. For someone wanting to cut out drone comb (capped brood) for varroa control, it would make cutout quick and easy.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pike, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    287

    Default Re: One piece pierco frames and SHB

    I looked more closely at the frames and could see much of the channels were filled with propolis.

    I think it's also important to understand how beekeepers deal with SHB when they find it. Is keeping hives with minimal area for the beetle to hide from the bee, a determining factor? I would think that has something to do with it but perhaps the strength of the hive is as important.

    What is your first defense when seeing SHB? Or, at what point do you react to the signs of SHB?

    Thanks

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Cookeville, TN, USA
    Posts
    3,913

    Default Re: One piece pierco frames and SHB

    That's a great question - you should start a thread in pests and diseases. Seriously.

    The whole thread has been good - I'm considering buying several hundred new plastic frames (which I have never used) on account of I have an aversion to more work.

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