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  1. #101
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    Default Re: Purdue university study confirms neonicotinoids on maize killing honeybees

    I could not help but notice that borderbeeman included the Pesticide Action Network of Germany and its American affiliate in his list of environmental groups that are supposedly opposed to pesticide coatings on seed corn, see post 82.

    The PAN of North America is among the greenest of the verdant environmental organizations. The American branch of PAN is so green that approximately half or more of all the green environmental originations partnered with PAN are located in or near the San Francisco Bay area or in adjoining states. No one, and I mean NO ONE can accuse PAN of being in the pocket, on the payroll, or of being a lackey to Bayer, Monsanto, or any other agriculture giant.

    I suspect however that the Honorable borderbeeman failed to read PAN’s “Field Guide to Non Chemical Pest Management in Corn Production.”
    https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...1Vur0tVLbVQysw

    In the name of full discloser the following quote is directly from PAN’s web page and it has in no way been tweaked, massaged, or changed to help prove my or any other poster’s point. The font and color differences between my post and PAN’s words is an enhancement added by myself to further differentia PAN’s words from my own feeble mutterings.

    Pesticide Action Network’s Field Guide to Non Chemical Pest Management in Corn Production, page 9
    General Recommendations line 3.

    3. Always select good and diseased-free seeds. If possible, treat seeds to kill seed
    borne pathogens and insect pests


    There you have it right from the horses’ mouth. Nuf said on this issue? I think so!
    Last edited by Scrapfe; 01-19-2012 at 06:51 PM.
    Scrapfe---Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied.--Otto von Bismarck.

  2. #102
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    Default Re: Purdue university study confirms neonicotinoids on maize killing honeybees

    Ok, I'll plant my pink seeds. And I had enough biology in a farming region to know about using a fungicide on seeds before planting. I used to dunk them in a clorox/water rinse. Reckon my corn doesn't need dunked.
    Time to be a gypsy again, 2014 will be my prep year, my bees want a better area with actual rainfall.

  3. #103
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    Default Re: Purdue university study confirms neonicotinoids on maize killing honeybees

    So you dont have a problem with Big Chemical treating your seeds with a toxic fungicide, without your knowledge or permission?
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  4. #104
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    Default Re: Purdue university study confirms neonicotinoids on maize killing honeybees

    Mercury I would have issues with, it is too toxic. Neonics I would prefer to avoid, corn is cheaper than bees.

    I may have a problem with unknowingly buying treated seeds, but I have a limited number of places to buy seed from. I either plant them or throw them in the trash. I will be getting seeds from some heritage seed collectors in the future.

    The only reason I even bought sweet corn seed last year was my neighbor unexpectedly tilled me a large area that I hadn't had planted before, I had nothing to put there, and I had 2 options, plant something or grow weeds. I hastily bought and planted sweetcorn, then the neo-nic petitions and warnings came out, then I asked my feed store whether the seeds were treated. (my specific concern being neo-nic) They said no, so I didn't pull the plants out and trash them.

    Haste makes waste. I will either take my own seeds from this year's crop and dry and preserve them my way, or buy heritage seeds, or not plant corn again. A lot depends on the weather. It is a heavy water user. And I really don't need that much corn. Doesn't store well unless I do a lot of labor intensive canning or cutting and freezing, and its nutritional value is slightly above zero.
    Time to be a gypsy again, 2014 will be my prep year, my bees want a better area with actual rainfall.

  5. #105
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    Default Re: Purdue university study confirms neonicotinoids on maize killing honeybees

    Quote Originally Posted by psfred View Post
    Chlorothalonil is a fungicide, very commonly used, and probaly not a real threat to bees. The trade mane is Daconil.


    Bee kills are not the only problem with neo-nics. The most concerning problem is long term persistence in soil and therefore accumulation, with much higher amounts found in plants with each year of use.

    Peter
    Elevated levels of the fungicide chlorothalonil in honey bees have been associated with “entombed pollen” which is linked
    with increased risk of colony mortality (vanEngelsdorp et al. 2009b). <-- from the new study out on neonics causing increase in nosema-c

    do you know of anything published, posted on the accumulation of neonics in the soil and plants? I have heard of slides being presented at bee meetings etc but haven't been able to find any study of the same field for instance over muliple years? thanks
    mike syracuse ny
    I went to bed mean, and woke up meaner. Marshal Dillon

  6. #106
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    Default Re: Purdue university study confirms neonicotinoids on maize killing honeybees

    http://www.johnnyseeds.com/

    Time to order seeds.
    Time to be a gypsy again, 2014 will be my prep year, my bees want a better area with actual rainfall.

  7. #107
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    Default Re: Purdue university study confirms neonicotinoids on maize killing honeybees

    Read all the posts on this topic and I have to say with some of it is just amazing.

    I've been keeping bees long enough to remember when beekeepers had a real disdain for chemicals in Ag, my how times have changed.

    Two of my once most productive yards and best winter survival rate, are now in the field corn belt. five years ago things changed abruptly. When returning for late winter checking of hives, I had 38 dead outs or close to it and 2 overly full hives which appeared unnatural for that time of year. Never have I seen bees boil over when cracking the lid, not in late january anyway!! it appeared that perhaps bees had moved in from the hives next to them.
    The hives that were dead or dying had no dead bees in the hives only maybe a handful of bees around the queen if that. I've had a very productive track record up until then, twenty years worth of fine clover by the barrel and trapping pollen for human consumption. Had to buy replacement packages which I had not done since the seventies.
    The only thing that changed in my area was the advent of field corn, and now lots of it and I'm still having problems. So I'm giving up on my once best yards in this region and moving them to less productive area.

    Why I was motivated to write on this topic was the assumption that the purdue team was on the payroll, and had an agenda, of one of the non profits that sponsored this study. This mindset is laughable, If you want to compare a multi national pesticide corporations incentives against a nonprofit you go right ahead. Bayer is in it for money, and have a very bad track record that goes way back to the Nazis. And yes it wasn't that surprising that they hired one the most beautiful woman in Germany to represent them at Apimondia last sept.

    The North American Pollinator Protection Campaign is an ecological group made up of diverse PHd people that was started in 1999, Since then the NAPPC has grown from an idea by Gabriela Chavarria, Ph.D., and philanthropist-beekeeper, Paul Growald, to an international force driving interest in the vital role and fragile status of native and managed pollinators; species responsible for one-third of our food.
    So yes I do think this research is valid, and the purdue team has integrity, and most of all it should continue.
    According to Dr krupke and Dr Hunt who I have corresponded with, lack of funding is always an issue. There are many good scientists trying to get funds from a very limited source , and to date the American bee federation and the California state beekeepers hasn't given any funds for this research.
    So if anyone has any ideas about how to raise funds to continue true science, and Not diversionary tactics I would appreciate the correspondence.

    However I'm not at all interested in some sort of online debate. So If you need to throw mud, maybe just turn off the computer, and go check the bees or build some equipment or something more productive.
    And BTW I'm 3rd generation beekeeper going back to 1906 on the german side of my family and I love apiculture and I'm very committed to it.
    I wish everyone out there a very productive and healthy year with the bees and the rest of there activity.
    Still believing in good quality home produced honey is better then GMO high fructose corn syrup. Keep them buzzing, best to all Seth

  8. #108
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    Default Re: Purdue university study confirms neonicotinoids on maize killing honeybees

    Thank you for posting this Seth.
    I keeP signing petItions.
    Bayer keePs buying PolitIcians
    Time to be a gypsy again, 2014 will be my prep year, my bees want a better area with actual rainfall.

  9. #109
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    Default Re: Purdue university study confirms neonicotinoids on maize killing honeybees

    Quote Originally Posted by humbee View Post
    There are many good scientists trying to get funds from a very limited source , and to date the American bee federation and the California state beekeepers hasn't given any funds for this research.
    So if anyone has any ideas about how to raise funds to continue true science, and Not diversionary tactics I would appreciate the correspondence.
    Seth, you have to create a machine like the American Cancer Society. The problem is once created it grows into a bureaucracy that just grows and doesn't produce anything. The research is great proof if it ever comes but the solution is in common sense. Like your life experiences tells you what happened to your bees.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  10. #110
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    Default Re: Purdue university study confirms neonicotinoids on maize killing honeybees

    Ace,

    I believe the point is that we have to live with what is. By the time Seth has created a machine like the ACS half of us will be in our graves and our bees will be dead too. sign a petition. Boycott Bayer. Don't buy GMO's, and I hate to boycott my local feed store, but Monsanto shelled out 1.4 million to buy up the varieties of seeds and plants I've been getting from them for years. I may buy 3 Early Girl tomato plants, the rest - I'll order heritage non Monsanto seeds. We have to keep the competition in business. Or let them go, it is our choice.

    I'm not a big AG farmer, and I'm not a big AG fan, and I don't care how much corn it takes to feed the ethanol machine, if we lose the bees the nutritional value of GMO wheat, neonic corn and etc won't be enough to support healthy humans.

    And now I am stepping down off of my soap box and leaving Beesource for the day. I have a business to run and I'm ticked off again...

    Gypsi
    Time to be a gypsy again, 2014 will be my prep year, my bees want a better area with actual rainfall.

  11. #111
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    Default Re: Purdue university study confirms neonicotinoids on maize killing honeybees

    I wasn't expecting Seth to do it. I use "You" as a general term.
    I hear you Gypsi, sometimes it just feels good to vent. Just so you know Lowes is carrying High Mowing Seeds right next to Monsanto's (Burpee). We just got 95% of our seeds this year at Lowes.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  12. #112
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    Default Re: Purdue university study confirms neonicotinoids on maize killing honeybees

    Time to be a gypsy again, 2014 will be my prep year, my bees want a better area with actual rainfall.

  13. #113
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    Default Re: Purdue university study confirms neonicotinoids on maize killing honeybees

    My problem with making informed choices is that the 'information' is usually flawed or intentionally fabricated. I don't have the personality to have the 'ostrich with it's head in the sand' approach. I want to know everything, see everything. And yes, I am often amazed or horrified.
    I believe no one until they prove themselves truthful-a cynical view I know, but one I have learned in a life time of seeing too much deceit.
    Whether we're talking about Politics, pesticides, pharmaceuticals, food safety, etc. no matter. If you want to know the truth, usually just follow the money.
    All most of us can do is be observant and do what we think is right.
    Years from now we will have some answers..yes, when it is too late. I wonder what those answers will be?
    What do you know now you wish you had known 20 years ago? Yes, you should have stopped smoking, should have eaten a healthier diet, should have exercised more. But then, those are things you DID know 20 years ago-just chose to ignore.
    What are some ignoring now? The facts are there if you can sort through them. Will you make changes or just ignore them and hope they won't affect you?

    Knowing details has helped me be successful in many of my endeavors. But I don't want to be worried about the weeds in my garden if a Hurricane is coming.

    It's all in your Perspective.
    Last edited by Lauri; 02-29-2012 at 09:42 AM.

  14. #114
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    Default Re: Purdue university study confirms neonicotinoids on maize killing honeybees

    Quote Originally Posted by Gypsi View Post
    ... I hate to boycott my local feed store, but Monsanto shelled out 1.4 million to buy up the varieties of seeds and plants I've been getting from them for years. I may buy 3 Early Girl tomato plants, the rest - I'll order heritage non Monsanto seeds...
    When you plant your heritage tomato seeds I do hope that you don't plant the Rutgers tomato variety. The reason is that the Rutgers tomato is not a "heriloom" tomato, except by a very very taught stretch of the imagination.

    Rutgers is a cross bred hybrid tomato (Early Girl is too) Rutgers tomatoes were hybridized by Rutgers University in New Jersey at the (I think) behest of the Campbell’s Soup Company for use in Campbell’s pre-processed food factories for products like canned tomato juice and other processed foods. That is why New Jersey's old nick-name is "The Garden State"

    Do remember however, Monsanto is NOT in the business of selling seeds. It is impossible in fact to buy a seed that Monsanto has grew, owned or paid others to grow for them. Monsanto business is licensing its gene splicing technology to other seed companies and these seed companies grow, distribute, and sell these seeds. Some of these seed companies are wholly owned subsidiaries of Monsanto others are not. There is a very good possibility that any non GMO seed that you purchase is grown and sold by a seed company that also sells seeds produced using Monsanto's patented Bio-Tech (Gene-Splicing) technology even though the seeds you buy from this company are not Genetically Engineered.

    On a side note, The paten on the GMO soybean variety known as Round UP Ready soybeans, expires at the end of 2014. Staring with the 2015 crop year, farmers all over America can save their ROR soybean seeds and replant them year after year without owing a licensing fee to Monsanto or anyone else. So I guess that makes RUR soy a "heriloom" soybean.

    This is in no way intended as a condemnation of your or anyone else’s closely held beliefs. I only include this information so you can make better informed choices as to which seeds you purchase, or which seeds you leave in the store. Knowledge is power.
    Last edited by Scrapfe; 02-29-2012 at 05:24 PM. Reason: word choice
    Scrapfe---Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied.--Otto von Bismarck.

  15. #115
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    Default Re: Purdue university study confirms neonicotinoids on maize killing honeybees

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrapfe View Post
    Do remember however, Monsanto is NOT in the business of selling seeds. It is impossible in fact to buy a seed that Monsanto has grew, owned or paid others to grow for them.
    Per Monsanto's own website: "Monsanto offers the world’s vegetable growers more than 4,000 distinct seed varieties representing more than 20 species. Monsanto’s vegetable seed business serves open-field and protected culture customers through its brands: Seminis, De Ruiter Seeds and regional brands."

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrapfe View Post
    Knowledge is power.
    So is the truth.

  16. #116
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    Default Re: Purdue university study confirms neonicotinoids on maize killing honeybees

    This is pretty interesting information. Apparently Monsanto is in control of many seed "products". This brings up a number of questions in my mind:

    If a seed is labled as "heirloom" is there any guarantee that the seed is in fact, not a hybrid variety? How can one know for sure? Seems a little vauge.

    Just because a seed is a hybrid variety, does this mean that Mansanto "owns" the rights to it? Again, how can you know for sure? Are there there hybrids out there that are in the public domain? If so, which ones?

    Most importantly, how does Mansato enforce the "no seed saving" policy? I buy plenty of hybrid garden seed every year and I have yet to see a warning lable instructing me to not save seeds. I wonder if some of the scare from RR soy beans is "drifting" (hehe) towards the garden seed discussion.
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  17. #117
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    Default Re: Purdue university study confirms neonicotinoids on maize killing honeybees

    Scrapfe, Monsanto has bought up many seed producing companies including Organic seed producers. As yet they haven't change the standard of organics to include GMO but many fear it. Can you smell monopoly? Almost smells like oil.

    What is wrong with hybrids? That doesn't mean GMO or round up ready.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  18. #118
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    Default Re: Purdue university study confirms neonicotinoids on maize killing honeybees

    Seed kept dry and refrigerated keeps for years. I kept seed from last year, the varieties that Monsanto just bought the company for, and I will be stocking my fridge with heirloom seeds in the next couple of weeks. Some people stock a year's worth of canned goods in case of an environmental disaster. I hate canned veggies.

    And yes, informed choices are really hard Lauri - I don't have time to deeply research 1/4 of the things I would like to research. So I follow the money, I try to make the best choices I can, support smaller businesses.

    (like my locally owned small feed store - who I would really like to see do the research and offer more choices - every seed I've bought from them in the last 10 years is a variety now owned by Monsanto, including my Early Girl tomatoes - I bought 3 today.)

    We can only do the best that we can do. But I don't want any neonics. Corn is a semi-useless crop anyway, I don't eat much of it.
    Time to be a gypsy again, 2014 will be my prep year, my bees want a better area with actual rainfall.

  19. #119
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    Default Re: Purdue university study confirms neonicotinoids on maize killing honeybees

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrapfe View Post
    ... Monsanto business is licensing its gene splicing technology to other seed companies and these seed companies grow, distribute, and sell these seeds. Some of these seed companies are wholly owned subsidiaries of Monsanto others are not...
    Quote Originally Posted by VeggieGardener View Post
    … "Monsanto offers the world’s vegetable growers more than 4,000 distinct seed varieties representing more than 20 species… through its brands: Seminis, De Ruiter Seeds and regional brands."
    Quote Originally Posted by VeggieGardener View Post
    So is the truth.
    So? Didn’t I say that Monsanto owned some seed distribution companies but not others, Seminis and De Ruiter are only two, what‘s your point???

    By its very nature knowledge produces truth. As for knowledge producing power. The reason Monsanto is powerful is because Monsanto possesses more knowledge than its detractors do.
    Scrapfe---Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied.--Otto von Bismarck.

  20. #120
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    Default Re: Purdue university study confirms neonicotinoids on maize killing honeybees

    Quote Originally Posted by Nabber86 View Post
    If a seed is labled as "heirloom" is there any guarantee that the seed is in fact, not a hybrid variety? How can one know for sure? Seems a little vauge.

    Just because a seed is a hybrid variety, does this mean that Mansanto "owns" the rights to it? Again, how can you know for sure? Are there there hybrids out there that are in the public domain? If so, which ones?

    Most importantly, how does Mansato enforce the "no seed saving" policy? I buy plenty of hybrid garden seed every year and I have yet to see a warning lable instructing me to not save seeds. I wonder if some of the scare from RR soy beans is "drifting" (hehe) towards the garden seed discussion.
    Nabber, it is somewhat vague with some groups using a forty year time frame to qualify a variety as an heirloom and others using shorter periods but there is usually still enough history or background to set them apart.

    Monsanto does not own all hybrids and hybrids are vastly different from GMO varieties. Hybrids usually aren't restricted or protected to the same degree as GMO's. Partly because most hybrid crosses aren't stable and saving seeds from them is a crap shoot as you never know what traits you will wind up with from the offspring of seeds that you save and replant.

    Monsanto can easily identify and document even traces of GMO material in saved seed and then enforce the restrictions through litigation.

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