Small/natural cell regression questions

[tsk]

I'm a relatively new beekeeper (I started with 3 packages in Spring) who wants to try small/natural (and eventually small/natural cell foundationless). This first year, being new, I assumed foundationless would automatically get me small cells. I didn't realize I would have to spend time regressing down. For this Spring, I have 3 more packages coming along with an order of PF-120 frames as these seem to be the easiest way to regress. I'm trying to come up with a plan to best use the PF-120 frames.

I'm not sure if I should use them in my existing hives or if I should use them with the new packages (I purchased 60 of them so I don't have an unlimited supply). I guess I'd like to explore both options. I could purchase more of the frames if necessary but at the same time my ultimate goal is to get to foundationless so I'd prefer not to have too many around.

If I use them with the existing hives, I would assume the best thing to do would be to use them as a bit of swarm control here in Spring and add some into the middle of the broodsnest?

If I use them with the new packages, do I give them all PF-120 frames, or is my goal for these to be limited to the broodsnest? It seems like I'm "wasting" these if I put them everywhere as the bees probably don't want to use them to store honey in.

Anyways, I'd appreciate some input here on the best way to proceed.

Thanks.

[KQ6AR]

If you install you're new packages on the pf-120 they will build out small cell. No problem. We started all our hives on the mann lake plastic, & all the swarms we caught.
You're established hives might be a little more challenging. You could add a box of the pf-120's on top, as they move up take all the old boxes from the bottom away from them. Don't mix the old with the new if you're goal is to regress them. Just get the old frames out of you're apiary as the bees move up into the new frames.

[Michael Bush]

If the object is to get small cells, then I would use only the existing comb and the PF120s and go back to foundationless only after they are regressed.

[dr.buzz]

Do you concur that it takes 7 or 8 consecutively smaller cell sized generations to get to natural cell size?

[tsk]

If I use the PF-120, they will be regressed right away, right? I'm assuming first bees build out the frames at about 4.95 mm/cell. Those bees die in 6 weeks or so, and new bees were born in small cells and should build smaller cells? Or does it still take a few generations?

[dr.buzz]

I'm sorry, maybe I should have specified that I was meaning foundationless. I'm referring to something Sam Comfort said about his natural cell top bar hives, that even if you shook bees from foundation into a tbh with empty bars, they would only draw a little smaller, but that if you, theoretically, kept shaking them onto blank top bars every 21 days, it would take 7 or 8 of those cycles before they fully regressed to their natural cell size.

[Michael Bush]

>Do you concur that it takes 7 or 8 consecutively smaller cell sized generations to get to natural cell size?

Would they keep getting smaller for 7 or 8 times. Perhaps. But they will go quickly at first and slower later and those last 5 or 6 times are irrelevant to anything. I've seen package bees draw 4.7mm and I've seen them draw 5.2mm. How fast varies and it may be what they were on before (like Pierco at 5.2mm or so or PF100s at 4.9mm or Rite Cell at 5.4mm...)

Those that drew 4.7mm the first try drew 4.6mm on the second... how much smaller than that will they get? Probably not much smaller if at all.