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  1. #141
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    Aug 2005
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    Silicon Valley, CA
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    Default Re: Checkerboarding verses Opening the Broodnest

    "In contrast, my bees don't cap overhead nectar until main flow. Is it a regional thing or is somebody reading it differently from others?"

    I would have to agree with Mr. Palmer.... My bee will also cap overhead stores prior to the main flow. But, In particular, my local humidity is very much lower that in your area so even when it is cool ( 60F-70F ) the bees can easily dry it down.

    Fuzzy

  2. #142
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    Elkton, Giles, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: Checkerboarding verses Opening the Broodnest

    Fuzzy,
    Thought we agreed that your bees came out of your mild winter with wax making capability. Very different situation from most of the temperate US. If they have wax makers, they likely have nectar driers also. At least both are generated here during the same period.

    Walt

  3. #143
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    Mar 2011
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    Utica, NY
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    Default Re: Checkerboarding verses Opening the Broodnest

    Quote Originally Posted by wcubed View Post
    First, I'd like to see when the colony will draw foundation inserted in the broodnest interior referenced to main flow. In other words, how far, time wise, in advance of main flow will they have sustained wax making capability. On each cycle of raising brood, give them a frame of foundation immediately adjacent to a frame of brood. If you don't get the same results I do, we'll consider it a regional thing and figure out the next step.
    Doesn't feeding affect the results? Who's not feeding?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  4. #144
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    Dec 2008
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    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
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    Default Re: Checkerboarding verses Opening the Broodnest

    What I see in Dixie is waxmakers generated during swarm preparations deposit their wax when its no longer needed for support of the swarm in a new location

    Can't say I have ever seen that. We do not get that close to swarm preparation???

    After some thought, if you put a frame of foundation in when there is little nectar flow, they will draw part of it out, using the wax from the part they did not use.

    Crazy Roland

  5. #145
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    Default Re: Checkerboarding verses Opening the Broodnest

    Walt,
    We did indeed agree as you stated. So, don't let anyone suggest that your memory is poorly.

    Fuzzy

  6. #146
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    Default Re: Checkerboarding verses Opening the Broodnest

    Roland/Adrian,
    And I don't see much of that. (wax relocation) We're inching closer without any testing.

    Should have mentioned that M. Bush might have other things in mind to try. Give him a PM to ask what he thinks might be a good approach. His opinion would take priority.

    Ace,
    I, for one, am not feeding in the spring.
    Walt

  7. #147
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    Mar 2011
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    Utica, NY
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    Default Re: Checkerboarding verses Opening the Broodnest

    Quote Originally Posted by wcubed View Post
    Ace,
    I, for one, am not feeding in the spring.
    Walt
    But if someone did it would change things right?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  8. #148
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Dresden ,Tn 38225
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    113

    Default Re: Checkerboarding verses Opening the Broodnest

    Gentlemen, I must say this has been one of the best discussions I have ever seen on the forums. It was kept very civil and mostly on topic. Very educational. Thank you.

  9. #149
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    Dec 2008
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    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
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    Default Re: Checkerboarding verses Opening the Broodnest

    Give him a PM to ask what he thinks might be a good approach.

    Will do .

    Crazy Roland

  10. #150
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    Jan 2011
    Location
    Clackamas Oregon
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    771

    Default Re: Checkerboarding verses Opening the Broodnest

    I could smell the wax across the yard and with the nice weather I opened it up and went through the entire hive. I had about 4 additional frames drawn out 50 to 75% with zero brood in either of the two 10F deeps. I don’t know if it counts as a “flow” or not. Lots of dandelions, plum, peaches blooming but no apple yet but crab apples are close. Should I give them more foundation or what? Very little capped honey.
    Does that help you walt or are you looking for a better %. I did not take pictures. Been a bad year for this rookie. Lost 2 in fall to robbing (1 yellow jackets, 1 to other hives) lost one here when we had back to back snow fall late and they could not get to their candy board. Now queenless before apples. Yes feeding a candyboard.

  11. #151
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    Elkton, Giles, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: Checkerboarding verses Opening the Broodnest

    minz,
    Wouldn't hazard a guess as to your season benchmarks. West of the mountains, your season might be slightly ahead of mine. I'm in early main flow.

    Appreciate your input, but think I would have to see that F being drawn to have a bit better feel for whether it might be wax purging or not. The amount is more than we have ever seen in purging in my area. One frame's worth is more than we see normally to that extent, and that's an outside limit. It's possible that you are in main flow, that comb was being filled as it was being drawn, and the nectar moved to the brood nest because of a nectar dearth at present. Can't guess at your seasonal flow characteristics either.

    Our flow is constantly increasing to main flow and starts declining about swam issue timing. Flow patterns are definately a part of the picture we're trying to get.

    Will keep this handy. Let us know when nectar/honey resumes in that new comb, If it's convenient for you.

    Walt

  12. #152
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    Jan 2011
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    Clackamas Oregon
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    771

    Default Re: Checkerboarding verses Opening the Broodnest

    I will need to check my notes. I generally put down what percentage of each frame is drawn, what the brood is (%) and capped honey (%). I seem to remember putting some new plastic in the hive with extra thick coating of new capping wax. I did move frames around after her sister hive starved in the last snowstorm. I mention this after your last comment because now I have a hive that had capped brood going into the last snow storm and now has pretty much none (queenless, 0 new brood). I would think they would have had a lot of nurse bees without any jobs to do and a handful of frames with wax smeared all over them. Also the frames I considered to be “drawn” were not fully drawn but a visible pattern of drawn wax, many only about 1/8”. I am west of the Cascades (Mt. Hood lower elevations) East of the coast range. I think much like you in a high enough elevation that I am about 2 weeks behind Portland’s bloom. I have been reading about the country being so warm this winter but we have been consistently 7-10 degrees below average and have been breaking rain fall records (for our climate that is raining). Maybe over eager but I gain a lot from this thread and would like to contribute my overzealous engineering record keeping. Now if I could just keep them alive.

  13. #153
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    Default Re: Checkerboarding verses Opening the Broodnest

    Adrian/Roland,
    There are some posts on the thread --Re: "need" to draw wax-- that are relevant to the experiment. squarepeg had some foundationless in the broodnest that was drawn early. see posts 8 and 12 on that thread.

    I would still like for you to try foundation in the brood nest to confirm my results of 20 years ago. I no longer have bees.

    Most us are aware that a hole or void in drawn comb is often filled in with drone cells when patched by the bees - even if located up in a honey super. I was also aware that MB saw extensive drone cells with the empty frame replacement, but didn't put it together. The eureka moment was that the colony was filling the void with drawn drone cells. But the questions still unanswered are:
    ...Do they develope wax making just for that purpose and then lose it?
    ...Does worker sized foundation fill the void with a cell pattern that is unacceptable?
    Complicated - aint it?
    Walt

  14. #154
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    Utica, NY
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    Default Re: Checkerboarding verses Opening the Broodnest

    Quote Originally Posted by wcubed View Post
    ...Does worker sized foundation fill the void with a cell pattern that is unacceptable?
    Logically yes. If all that is available is worker foundation then it most definitely is lacking in drone cells. If I were to start a brand new hive today with new equipment I would have an open frame in the first and third position from both ends. That way the bees can build what ever they want or need.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  15. #155
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    Sep 2007
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    Hudson, WI USA
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    2,242

    Default Re: Checkerboarding verses Opening the Broodnest

    Walt, I have some recent anecodotal data for you pertaining to my collection of 9 nucs these were overwintered in 5 frame colonies two boxes deep, for a total of 10 frames per colony.
    From the middle of March through the second week of April we had unseasonably warm temperatures into the 70's. During this time I became concerned that I would see swarming. To convince them that they had plenty of space I reversed the boxes and added another 5 frame box of the undrawn plastic foundation I use (a third tier of boxes); Then to encourage use of that space I exchanged the middle frames of the top undrawn box with the middle frame of the drawn (and occupied) frame below it.
    The 3rd level was added on April 4th.
    Yesterday I was checking colonies for stores (we have had some chilly rainy weather this last week) when I checked the above-mentioned nucs I noticed that neither of the 2 nucs I checked had drawn out the center undrawn frame that was placed within the center of the middle box and had a drawn frame directly above it.
    Yet, between the top of the frames of the middle box and the bottom of the frames of the box above it there were many drone larva that had been filled in since my previous inspection.
    We are in apple and dandelion bloom at the time of writing and today it was mid 60's and sunny.

  16. #156
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    Default Re: Checkerboarding verses Opening the Broodnest

    Walt,

    A question on hive behavior during supercedure.... These hives were checkerboarded, have 2 deeps, no excluder, and 4-6 supers in place. They are full of bees but nowhere near full of nectar yet. Recently, there are large numbers of bees on the front of the hive. Some on the porch and many more in an upward arch across the face of the hive. The temps are in the 60-73F. This is not a typical heat related beard. There is a decent nectar flow underway at this time.

    Am wondering if they are awaiting the hatching of a new (supercedure) queen ? Or, a mating flight ?

    Any thoughts ? -- Fuzzy

  17. #157
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    Elkton, Giles, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: Checkerboarding verses Opening the Broodnest

    Adrian,
    Thanks for the timing reference. If your bee vs vegetation schedules are the same as mine, you should be right at repro c/o.

  18. #158
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    Default Re: Checkerboarding verses Opening the Broodnest

    Fuzzy,
    We see no outward indications of SS. The pattern you describe is familiar, but we associate it with crowding. We see it mostly post harvest when the the bees are suddenly confined to less space, even with positive ventilation at the top.
    Walt

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