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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Frederick County, Maryland, USA
    Posts
    414

    Default Re: Varroa tolerant queen breeders for 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    Adamf, My statement was made based on 20 years of seeking and raising various types of varroa tolerant bees, not just from reading articles on the internet. In the early years from the roughly 1990 invasion of Varroa into the U.S., the major resistance mechanism was breaks in brood rearing. Any way you slice it, those breaks wound up cutting honey production. Along the way, a few colonies were found that were naturally tolerant to varroa without the brood breaks. In retrospect, these were either highly hygienic or else mite mauling bees. Most feral bees were wiped out. Selection within the pool of survivors is gradually increasing the mite tolerance traits in our feral population.
    Okay FP. Those "gems" are raw material for selection.

    When the Russian queens were brought in, researchers at first called the tolerant genetics "SMR" because they did not understand the mechanisms involved. These bees exhibit very high levels of mite tolerance, but if line bred too closely, they exhibit traits like uncapping and removing even healthy brood. This trait seems to be a case of a little bit is good, but too much is a problem. If you are not familiar with this aspect of VSH, I suggest you check with Glenn Apiaries, they deal with it on a regular basis.
    SMR/VSH trait selection doesn't/didn't have anything to do with Russian bees. You are mixing the two up. We use VSH/SMR stock in our breeding program and have used it since it first became available. There was initially a problem with over-zealous uncapping but that was resolved--it's in the literature, and in the success of VSH stock now performing as well as any other "commercial" stock with some crossing and selection.

    That gets us to the essence of my statement. When you consider all the queen breeders in the U.S., less than 10% are raising highly varroa tolerant queens. That number is increasing rapidly as breeder queens with high levels of mite tolerance become more common. The problem I see is that these tolerant queens are based almost entirely on the VSH trait. This trait has known problems when concentrated.
    I'd check this. You're concerned about a problem that has been resolved.

    As I stated, brood production is reduced and honey production is reduced too. That you actively select for both production and tolerance is the path we should be going forward, but I would bet a dollar that you either don't actually screen your breeder queens to see which trait they are exhibiting or else don't actively seek other traits like mite mauling in your breeding lines.
    Ha ha! You would lose that dollar! You're oversimplifying VSH expression to be black or white. Assume that VSH expression is not a negative, but an additive. By selecting for it AND for other good traits, one is breeding excellent stock. More and more breeders are using VSH stock in their programs. Are they doing this because they want their stock to perform less well? No. More queen producers are buying-into using VSH expressing stock. Most bee breeders have something with VSH going--depending on what their breeding objectives are.

    My reason for starting this thread is because we are at the tipping point where bees in the U.S. are finally going to be mostly varroa tolerant. I would like to see more effort made to increase the mite mauling trait in our bees. That is the one trait you don't mention selecting for and arguably it is the trait most needed to finally get away from using chemicals.
    I did an experiment back in 1996 that looked at grooming in colonies. I found that all colonies groom, some more then others. Yes, to combine grooming with VSH would be a good thing. You wouldn't lose a dollar bet if you gambled that that is being done now.

    Adam Finkelstein
    www.vpqueenbees.com

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Frostproof Florida usa
    Posts
    1

    Default Re: Varroa tolerant queen breeders for 2012

    carpentersapiaries is no longer a bare site I had to change host so it is now www.carpentersapiaries.com sorry for any problems this might have caused. if it still will not work email me at betterqueens@earthlink.net. thank you

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    St. Joseph County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    41

    Default Re: Varroa tolerant queen breeders for 2012

    Randy Oliver came to speak at one of the local bee meetings. While he was there, he did an inspection of one of our guys stock and pointed out the bees displaying VSH. Those queens caame from Wooten's http://wootensgoldenqueens.com/ I was lucky enough to bring one of those queens home with me Good brood pattern too - we'll see how they overwinter here

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ojai, California
    Posts
    928

    Default Re: Varroa tolerant queen breeders for 2012

    Dar -
    could you describe your test for mite mauling? I am aware of liquid nitrogen test for VSH. Are there other Varroa tolerance tests you are aware of?

    And, big THANK YOU for this and other posts. You are an amazing student of bees, and a great resource here on beesource.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Farmington, NM
    Posts
    734

    Default Re: Varroa tolerant queen breeders for 2012

    Velbert has nice queens http://www.vlwbeequeens.com/
    Plant Hardiness Zone 6B, 5300 ft., Bee Zone A/B, Proverbs 24:13
    https://www.facebook.com/mobileprotection#!/2RBeeFarm

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    United States Chico CA
    Posts
    5

    Default Re: Varroa tolerant queen breeders for 2012

    resistant bees.com has a talk at Lunz Institude that expains the relationship between VSH and small cell.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    United States Chico CA
    Posts
    5

    Default Re: Varroa tolerant queen breeders for 2012

    As far as Mitegrooming is concerned visit Bioimkerei Wallner in Randegg austria
    He came up with the VKF

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Southern Oregon
    Posts
    1,162

    Default Re: Varroa tolerant queen breeders for 2012

    Are we going to have a 2013 list?
    John B Jacob www.oldsolbees.com

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    SLC, UT
    Posts
    219

    Default Re: Varroa tolerant queen breeders for 2012

    Any updates to the list for 2013? I'd recommend removing 'russell' from the list given the information that has come to light in recent weeks.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,077

    Default Re: Varroa tolerant queen breeders for 2012

    You think valleyman would like to issue an addendum?
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ojai, California
    Posts
    928

    Default Re: Varroa tolerant queen breeders for 2012

    Do check out the referral list on www.glenn-apiaries.com as it lists a great number of mite-tolerant bee breeders, including Hygenic Italians, VSH, Russians, and several others.

    I saw the referral list in blue letters on the right side of the site under an announcement that Tom and Suki have retired, etc. Click on it and you get a map of the USA and a big list.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    SLC, UT
    Posts
    219

    Default Re: Varroa tolerant queen breeders for 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    You think valleyman would like to issue an addendum?
    Solomon, I'm not sure what you are referring to. I'm not privy to a lot of the politics here, or whether nor not Valleyman is associated with RR. I'm just aware of the massive controversy swirling around RA, and enough doubt has been raised in my mind that I sincerely doubt the queens I bought from him are Treatment Free or anything of the sort. I'm not even sure they are Carniolan.

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,077

    Default Re: Varroa tolerant queen breeders for 2012

    Just referring to his previous comments about some unnamed denizen being run off. Wondering if the tune has changed.

    We all know who he was talking about and now we all know what that person stands accused of.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    SLC, UT
    Posts
    219

    Default Re: Varroa tolerant queen breeders for 2012

    Oh, ok... I see. There's so much drama with RA I can't keep track of all of it.

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,385

    Default Re: Varroa tolerant queen breeders for 2012

    I update the earlier posts to reflect the current trend in a particular supplier.
    Regards, Barry

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    SLC, UT
    Posts
    219

    Default Re: Varroa tolerant queen breeders for 2012

    Thank you Barry.

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Jefferson Co, TX
    Posts
    566

    Default Re: Varroa tolerant queen breeders for 2012

    Is there an updated 2013 list. Was looking at 2 feral hives and they have mites. Netted a few at one hive and saw the mites, was looking at some comb on the second and saw a mite. So I am guessing at a glance they both are significant issues.

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Munfordville, Ky. U.S.A.
    Posts
    1,246

    Default Re: Varroa tolerant queen breeders for 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    You think valleyman would like to issue an addendum?
    Sorry, I just now read this. Yes I would like to say that I couldn't have been more wrong about Russell. I was duped and believed his hype. He actually did me favors, like sending my orders when I needed them. In hindsight he should have done this as I was one of his adamant supporters. Also in hindsight the products that I got from him were never of very good quality, not nearly as good as others reported. I actually pmd one of them and he admitted his weren't great either. So let me take this opportunity to apologize to anyone that took my recommendations and lost their money or received an inferior product from him. While I didn't have nearly as bad of an experience with his queens as I did the pure Russians, I am now using queens from a local supplier whom has been dependable until recently. I went to Carniolans last year when I had to replace the Russell junk as they failed ( several never layed at all ). I am now having trouble getting the queens I want. I love my Shamrock Carniolans, and it is such a long way to mail a queen or two at time it isn't feasible to get them. I will stick with Carniolans even if I have to go to the Black ones. They seem to work here in Ky. better than anything I've tried. I have posted other threads about being wrong about Russell, but I feel I can't say it enough. I actually have stayed off of Beesource because I was so ashamed of being duped.
    So much to learn, so little time!!

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    1,209

    Default Re: Varroa tolerant queen breeders for 2012

    It is best to eat crow when it is fresh, the older it gets, the worse it tastes.

    There are several queen breeders offering highly disease and pest tolerant queens. Carpenter apiaries has provided me with some good queens that are as good as my own highly varroa tolerant line.
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Munfordville, Ky. U.S.A.
    Posts
    1,246

    Default Re: Varroa tolerant queen breeders for 2012

    Without going back and searching for the post, I did tell all about Russell Apiaries shortly after it became obvious that he was a crook. Long before some of his other supporters did. If you will look back at my posts you will see where I reported the last shipment I got from him wasn't the genetics I ordered and evidence proved them to be virgin queens and not mated like I ordered. I didn't even ask them to replace them. I am not normally gullible, and still don't think that I am. He seemed so genuine and offered lots of good advice to people on here. He actually was instrumental in his advice of how to get rid of the pure Russians that I had wound up with. Another Dupe. Maybe I am gullible. That was the USDA and their Russian hype. Again should have known better. I have no mite problems at all with my Shamrock Carnies.
    So much to learn, so little time!!

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