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  1. #1
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    Sep 2011
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    cloquet,minnesoat,usa
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    Default end bars for frames

    hey does anyone know of a easy way to make end bars for frames? can it be done with a table saw? step by step instructions would be helpfull...

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    Chesterfield, NH
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    504

    Default Re: end bars for frames

    Quote Originally Posted by larrymn View Post
    hey does anyone know of a easy way to make end bars for frames? can it be done with a table saw? step by step instructions would be helpfull...
    Yes I have make ends and use Bench Top Planer/Jointer

    http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1...=26-65376728-2


    BEE HAPPY Jim 134

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Cupertino, CA, USA
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    280

    Default Re: end bars for frames

    I use router and bandsaw, so it might not be helpful, but here are some pics.
    https://picasaweb.google.com/Michael...BeeHive4302010

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
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    Reno, NV
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    3,165

    Default Re: end bars for frames

    I would serious discourage you from trying to use a table saw on pieces this small.
    When I look at them I see band saws, scroll saws, routers or wood sharpers. But not table saws. The table saw is in many ways the untamed beast of the woodworking shop.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
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    Coopersville, Michigan
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    260

    Default Re: end bars for frames

    I make my endbars out of scrap two by fours, mostly on the table saw with a dado blade. I've modifyed how I've down it to avoid detail work as much as possible. It all depends on what you want your end bars to look like. If you want the tapered ends you need a router as well. I don't have pics but I'll do my best to explain. I'm pretty careful to avoid getting anywhere near the blade especially with small parts.

    1) I first rip my 2x4 to the desired width of the end bar, this is done with the narrow side down (it takes 2 passes with a 10inch blade to shave them because they are 3 1/2 inches tall). If you are running 9 frames in a box you can leave them at an inch and a half no ripping. If your doing 10 you shave off an 1/8 inch for a standard size frame. If you are running 11 in a 10frame or 9 in an 8frame then you shave off a 1/4 inch.

    2) I then generally cut my 2x4s down to the length of the bars I'm making. 9 1/8 for a deep, 6 1/4 med, 5 3/8 shallow. This avoids problems with warped boards etc. I run a bunch through each step to avoid tons of blade changes and depth adjustments.

    3) ***Option for tapered end bars. If I want them tapered then I use a router with a clamped board or router table and a stop with a long straight bit (2inch, but again it takes two passes for each side) to trim all but the top 2 inches narrower. This would again be with the narrow side down trimming. This can also be done at the end with individual end bars on the router table, but it's pretty darn tedious... of course so is building frames from scratch, but I have more time than money.

    4) Next I unplug the saw and mount a 3/4 inch dado blade to a depth of 3/4 of an inch. I set my fence so that the dado will cut out the center of the end grain of the 2x4 longways. Different depending on your width of course. I then rip a channel down one end of each 2x4. I use an L shaped piece of wood to hold the 2x4 down if it is a very short piece and run it through w/o getting anywhere near the blades. CUT Only 1 end this depth.

    5) readjust the blade to 3/8 of an inch and repeat the above on the other end. You should end up with a short piece of 2x4 with a deep groove running down one end and a shallow on the other end.

    6) I then set the fence to 3/8 of an inch and get out the miter guide. I have a simple jig to hold the 2x4 in place. Basically it has a long tall backstop to hold the board and push the endbar free (it's taller than the blade and rus along the fence), another beside it to push it closer and one over the top to hold the board down. Don't even think about freehanding these pieces near the blade. I trim the edge a little and run them through. You can get 6 end bars out of one chunk of 2x4. I keep a push stick handy to clear the blade if need be.

    Sorry no pics. I'm on Christmas break soon so I'll stepping up production shortly. I may be able to get some pics then.

    Good luck end bars are a pain.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
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    Reno, NV
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    Default Re: end bars for frames

    MR. C, That is pretty much how I have been thinking of trying to do it. Didn't know if it all actually worked since I have not actually done it yet.

    I agree jigs, push blocks, push sticks and other safety devices are a must. Just be very careful because if you have never actually experienced how a table saw can kick a piece of wood around. split and destroy hold downs etc. then you have some surprising experiences yet to go. It is not a matter of if, it is a matter of when. It is the colossal demon of the table saw.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Coopersville, Michigan
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    260

    Default Re: end bars for frames

    Yep been there done that. Nothing like a little piece of wood (or big) launching itself backwards at ridiculous speeds. My neighbor launched a missle through his window when cutting on the porch once. I try to stay off to the side as much as possible since my saw comes up to waist height... <shudders>

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Bon Aqua, Tn USA
    Posts
    330

    Default Re: end bars for frames

    To be safe and hasten the inside cuts on the tops and bottoms, you can take the 2 x 4 and center your dado blade or mark the ends of the 2 x 4 for your cuts and just run the whole 2x4 standing up through your tablesaw. This will give you more to hold against your fence and you will have all your cuts on that 2x4 done at one time. Its like cutting a dado in the center of the ends of the 2x4. This will save you from making each of cuts one at a time and also help eliminate tear out, you will only have to use a backer board on the 2x4.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Algoma dr. Ontario, Canada
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    1,074

    Default Re: end bars for frames

    I made a set of endbars from rough, nominally 1" pine boards. The were for narrowed frames so I ripped the boards 1 1/4" wide then re ripped each piece the tall way 3/8 thick. Next cut to short length.

    I set up my miter slot sled to firmly clamp about 20 pieces in, standing on end to do the dado cuts for top and bottom bars. I did reduce the lower width with the jointer but see discussion that they can be left full width all the way down.

    Working with this many small parts close to the saw really raises the odds to 100% of hurting yourself unless you are religious about guarding, using finger boards and splitter etc. One way of minimizing your time in the line of fire is to arrange to just start the piece through and then have the helper pull them on through from the safer side of the saw.

    You have to like making sawdust and value your time at about zero to make the venture worth while though!
    Attached Images Attached Images

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Coopersville, Michigan
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    260

    Default Re: end bars for frames

    Quote Originally Posted by Nantom670 View Post
    To be safe and hasten the inside cuts on the tops and bottoms, you can take the 2 x 4 and center your dado blade or mark the ends of the 2 x 4 for your cuts and just run the whole 2x4 standing up through your tablesaw. This will give you more to hold against your fence and you will have all your cuts on that 2x4 done at one time. Its like cutting a dado in the center of the ends of the 2x4. This will save you from making each of cuts one at a time and also help eliminate tear out, you will only have to use a backer board on the 2x4.
    I had trouble getting a lot of pieces to clamp together straight, which is why I do one at a time. I also sometimes found it necessary to use a push stick/board on the bottom edge of the 2x4 to make sure it ran through straight and on center.

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    I set up my miter slot sled to firmly clamp about 20 pieces in, standing on end to do the dado cuts for top and bottom bars. I did reduce the lower width with the jointer but see discussion that they can be left full width all the way down.

    Working with this many small parts close to the saw really raises the odds to 100% of hurting yourself unless you are religious about guarding, using finger boards and splitter etc. One way of minimizing your time in the line of fire is to arrange to just start the piece through and then have the helper pull them on through from the safer side of the saw.

    You have to like making sawdust and value your time at about zero to make the venture worth while though!
    I had trouble keeping them even when I clamped pieces together, some got skewed to one side, but if you've got better clamps than I do that would be another good alternative (Other than that it worked very well when I tried it).

    As to leaving them the same width all the way down, it just depends how you are using the frames. If you run 9 to a box or run 10 with narrower frames it works just fine. If you run 10 with standard width frames or 11 in a 10frame box you can't use them to autospace each other without worrying about the bees propalizing the full length of the frame (poor bee space). I thought about doing narrower frames with frame spacers, but opted for tapered and less equipment. I'm debating trying 11 frame brood chamber next year, my bees made a mess when I tried 9frame (yes I know it works for some people just fine).

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
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    cloquet,minnesoat,usa
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    109

    Default Re: end bars for frames

    thinking on getting a band saw to help make it safer to make end bars for frames, is a 9" table top one big enough? I don't plan on making 1000's of frames just a hundred or so for this year's winter project. just asking for imput

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
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    Bon Aqua, Tn USA
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    330

    Default Re: end bars for frames

    I bought a really good used one off of the local craigslist for $100, 12" two speed Craftsman. It really is easier for me to cut those side bars and I also cut the top bar with it. I cut the side bars the width of the top bar, say 1 and 1/4" then cut the bottom of the bar at 1". Just take a ruler mark the top and come in 1/8" from each side on the bottom, take your ruler and draw your line and cut that first one with your band saw and use it to mark your other ones and you will discover how you got along without that bandsaw. And you will also discover how easy it is to almost cut a straight line. The bees will never complain that its not perfectly straight. Then I cut the bottom bar and just use my air brad gun to shoot into the side of the side bar with glue, or cut it 1/4" shorter and make the bottom bar a little longer and shoot it into the bottom. If you use foundation you would cut your slot in the middle first. Just don't let the better half see it, she will notice its not straight. But that's off topic.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
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    3,165

    Default Re: end bars for frames

    A 9 inch bench top woudl be plenty of saw for the job of end frames. Get a book or look up set up info for a band saw. proper set up makes the difference between night and day in how well your saw works. There are a lot of little adjustments and they need to be made in a certain order. but once it is done band saws are sweet toys.

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