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Treatment-Free Beekeeping without Small Cell

14K views 68 replies 17 participants last post by  Michael Bush 
#1 ·
I've been perusing BeeWeaver's site from time to time over the last couple days.
They claim not to have needed treatments for ten years now and I see no mention of small cell.
Far be it from me to approach the topic of small cell beekeeping with such orthodoxy that it would not be accepted in this forum. Small cell has certainly gotten its fair share of discussion lately.
At the same time, there have been a number of passing mentions of treatment-free beekeeping on conventional foundation. I know it can be done, one of my pastors at church has seven hives treatment-free on regular foundation last I heard. On the other hand, most if not all the cases I've heard of where conventional hives have gone cold turkey, there has been huge death.

So I don't want to reject this is a topic for discussion seeing all the small cell conversations. Who does this? Assuming BeeWeaver does it, there's our example for a commercial operation. And boy are they real proud of their stuff.
 
#38 ·
I have to agree with you on the gentleness factor, it is definately more fun to have gentle bees. I occassionally get annoyed that I have to suit up if I want to make close observations of entrance traffic etc to see what the girls are bringing in and you can forget about rototilling or weedwacking in front of the hives, (I keep them inside my deerfence in the garden, now if only it was bunny proof too). I miss my italians, but I'll be getting some more next year.
 
#40 ·
>Yes, inside information obviously. I was told it by someone who sold queens to them.
I was under the impression they raised all there own queens. Lets hope the "someone" is reliable.
>I don't think their genetics are that big of a secret, what's the point, the bees sell themselves.
No I don't think their genetics are a secret either as their breeding information and lineage is posted on their website. There is no mention of primorsky genetics anywhere though. They claim they are Brother Adam Buckfast for the most part.
>Ask around people who use their queens, most comments are pretty favorable. Build up into strong hives, store a good crop long as you can stop them swarming,
I don't have to ask around, I have used their queens for several years and have never worn a suit. Short sleeve shirt and a veil is all I have ever worn. Excessive swarming has never been an issue with their queens or the offspring queens.
>No mite issues. So other than the sometimes "hotness", most people pretty happy, long as they don't mind wearing a suit.
I have seen mites with their bees. Mine have never been overly hot.
 
#41 · (Edited)
I was under the impression they raised all there own queens. Lets hope the "someone" is reliable.
Oh yes, there was no suggestion they are selling other peoples queens, the queens he sold them were presumably to add to their breeding pool.

You said yours have never been hot? That's why I said "sometimes hot". Obviously, others have had the ones that are hot! ;). Some time ago, in my quest for a varroa resistant bee, I researched every bit of info I could on beeweaver, the methods stated on their web site, and further information from other commercial beeks including a commercial queen breeder, who have had dealings with them.
I'll admit this was an academic excersize, as I am overseas and my country will not allow bees to be imported. But I wanted to see what I could learn that might be useful to me.
 
#42 ·
Thanx Oldtimer for the info. I'll talk with Laura Weaver next time I call because I always like to know what genetics i'm introducing. I have not used their Taylor Made queens. I have always found them to be good bees and good people. Maybe some people just like wearing sweatty bee suits?
 
#44 ·
I have not met this beekeeper but he claims he does not treat for mites or with Fumagilin. I believe he takes his bees to almonds, overwinters in TX and produces honey in SD. I would like to try his bees but TX is a longs ways to pick up some nucs. Maybe I can arrange a pickup in SD ( a little closer). Take a look at this website

http://southbeekota.com/RussianBees.html

I don't know if he is on conventional foundation or SC.

I have been experimenting with SC and Foundationless and monitoring for mites twice a year. Not finding much of s difference. Survival percentages have been pretty similar too.

I tried two Beeweaver queens this summer and found them to be very sensitive to smoke. In fact I found that they were easier to work without smoke than with. When I discovered this they were not any more "hot" than my other hives. I found them to be a little runnier on the combs though. I need to work them a few more seasons to have a good opinion on them though.

Regards, Yuuki
 
#49 ·
I tried two Beeweaver queens this summer and found them to be very sensitive to smoke. In fact I found that they were easier to work without smoke than with. When I discovered this they were not any more "hot" than my other hives. I found them to be a little runnier on the combs though. I need to work them a few more seasons to have a good opinion on them though.

Regards, Yuuki
I find the smoke comment interesting, I didn't have as much luck with smoke as I did with my other bees, but I still think it at least helped. I know they never got "out of control", but smoke or no there were always a few bouncing off my veil whatever I did. The hives are a couple feet off the ground so it shouldn't have been from critters bothering them at night either.

What kind of smoke were you making? I use old bailer twine (undyed and untreated). Makes a good cool smoke and I have it all over the farm. Can be a pain to get lit though (Except when I sneak my wife's creme brule torch to light it).

And yes I had to suit up to watch entrance traffic, but when I say entrance traffic I mean a foot or two away just off to the side. I didn't have as much trouble as Michael, they ignored me if I was 10 feet back from the hive. Of course that's still pretty bad compared to how I used to manage my last ones.
 
#50 ·
Smoke has a different effect on African honey bees, than what it does on European honey bees.

What we've seen described in the thread so far, are 3 seperate african bee behaviours. There's sending a swarm into an already occupied hive, killing the other queen and usurping the hive, there's the effect of smoke and the way the bees run around on the comb, and there's comments like "You had to suit up to get within 100 yards of mine".

I'm beginning to wonder if I was a little bit too trusing when I read on their web site that they had the african problem under control.

Another thing, africans have a natural resistance to mites.
 
#52 ·
Well one guy said his Weavers were fine. Just try your luck. You can always requeen at some future time.

Must admit, it's a rare thing but I'm with Barry on this :). - Wondering why it is, that bees that are treatment free and descibed as good honey producers, etc. have not been widely adopted by commercial beekeepers.
 
#53 ·
>Another thing, africans have a natural resistance to mites.

Is this not a direct correlation to their excessive swarming tendencies, often times leaving the parent colonies' brood cycle interrupted. I'm not so sure that genetically, Africans are any less susceptible to varroa. As I recall this has been well documented.
 
#55 ·
The swarming thing has been well documented. However, there's more. If an african hive is deliberatly contaminated with mites, and a sticky board put in, a lot of the mites found on it will be damaged, or as the researchers sometimes call it, "chewed". That means, that the african bees are actually attacking the mites, and biting them.
Interesting Riskybizz, that you say the bees you've had from them have been gentle, ie, presumably not africanised, but that you've had mites on them.
 
#54 ·
Good is a relative term I guess, have you ever seen someone advertise queens that are bad honey producers? I really don't have enough experience with enough different breeds to say how they stack up against others. I'd like to do a comparison on honey & mite counts between them and some others, but my weavers will be my only second year colonies so it's really not going to work out, plus I don't have enough hives (yet) to get a good sample size anyway.
 
#56 ·
I do see mites in a few yards, in some colonies, not all. The BeeWeaver queens were from packages 3 years ago. I have as mentioned made splits from several of them as they are good producers. The original hives were a little runny on the comb. I can distinguish them from some others (like Minn. Hygienic). In all honesty the BeeWeavers have always been ok to work. Are they gentle, no not really. Do I take stings working these hives? Well yes depending on the manipulation. If I'm doing brood checks and tearing the hives down, and the weather happens to be less than ideal, maybe a little too cold, windy, or if the nectar flow is not a good one, they can become a little nasty. I have however found that to also be the case with most of my colonies thought, and not a unique characteristic of the Beeweavers. Laura is sending me a few more queens this spring to make some splits. I'll keep you posted. I have never used any treatments of any kind on any of my colonies.
 
#58 ·
I might relay an interesting incident that did happen 2 years ago to one colony of BeeWeavers. A previous 'normal" hive suddenly became quite aggressive. I was making up some splits in the yard and was run out. Now this had not previously happened before and I was naturally concerned. Why would a normal, non-aggressive colony suddenly turn very mean. Well we all know the answer to that is that it could be a result of many different factors. However, one theory is that when this queen mated at Beeweaver's she mated with many drones some of which were Africanized drones. Weavers readily admit this happens. One theory recognizes the fact that when different sperm is deposit within the queen, it is then stored in "layers" and that when these layers are subsequently reached, they produce more aggressive offspring. I spoke with Danny Weaver regarding this possibility and he agreed that it was possible. Sorry if i'm off topic here.
 
#59 ·
The layering thing is correct, in my own experience. I have two strains, one black, one yellow. I had a marked black queen I was using as a breeder. For perhaps 18 months all she produced was black bees and black queens. Then, from out of nowhere, the hive started getting yellow hybrids in it. And some of the queens from her are now golden with a black tip.

She's an awesome queen so I still breed from it, just, the golden queens from her are sold as hybrids.
 
#60 ·
there have been a number of passing mentions of treatment-free beekeeping on conventional foundation. I know it can be done, one of my pastors at church has seven hives treatment-free on regular foundation last I heard. On the other hand, most if not all the cases I've heard of where conventional hives have gone cold turkey, there has been huge death.

Who does this? Assuming BeeWeaver does it, there's our example for a commercial operation. And boy are they real proud of their stuff.
Not sure but I believe that John Kefuss is still on standard foundation and running an operation of comparable size to b weaver. Anyone here know for sure?
 
#65 ·
It's really too bad the 'Bond Method' has to be named after a fictional person. I have a method, if someone ever tries it, maybe I'll get a catchy title too. :rolleyes:

As all you know, I have been using the Bond Method since I started beekeeping. But I can certainly see the wisdom of the Soft Bond Method. ("Oh James!")

It would certainly be great to discuss in the switching over thread.
 
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