Chemical setbacks and treatment free beekeeping...?

**Intheswamp** · 11-22-2011, 08:47 AM

Not trying to be contentious, but my mind is a little muddy understanding the forum rules.

Here's some scenarios...

A hive has a cd case containing fipronil inside attached to the *outside* of it's screened bottom board. No other treatment (as defined by the rules in the treatment free forum) are used in this hive. Would this hive be considered "treatment free" being as the fipronil is on the outside of the hive?

A shb bait hive (entrance reduced to prevent bees from entering) is set up in the bee yard with the same cd traps and fipronil used in it...would this disqualify the neighboring beehives from being treatment free?

According to the "Unique Forum Rules" decided on by the forum users, the above would not disqualify the hives as being "treatment free". Also, according to the rules, it seems when Gardstar is used as a ground treatment that it shouldn't disqualify a hive since it is used outside of the hive (I really don't think anybody's going to spray pemethrin inside the hive).

If these two items are used outside of the hive but disqualify the hive (which they shouldn't according to the rules) as being treatment free then what is the distance requirement from unintended treatments? Does this mean that the ant poison used in my front yard 400 feet from my bee yard will disqualify my hives from being treatment free? What about treating for fireants directly in my bee yard? The use of Bt on my squash plants 100 feet from the hives? Does the state highway department coming by and spraying growth inhibitors

on the ROW disqualify my hives (600' away) from being treatment free?

Here's the pertinent part of the forum rules...

"First, this forum has decided to agree for the sake of context on a single definition for what "Treatment-Free Beekeeping" is.

Treatment: A substance introduced by the beekeeper into the hive with the intent of killing, repelling, or inhibiting a pest or disease afflicting the bees."

Again, not trying to be argumentative, but....???????????

Ed

**Solomon Parker** · 11-22-2011, 09:06 AM

It seems to me that the answers to your questions are pretty straightforward. This is treatment-free, not 'Organic' or 'Certified Naturally Grown.' It's about the bees in the hive, less the world outside.

**sqkcrk** · 11-22-2011, 09:57 AM

If you don't mind a Treatment Beekeepers reaction to the OP. If you treat the Apiary, you indirectly treat the colonies in the hives. So, to me, that would be treatment free beekeeping. Even if you don't put the treatment INTO the hive, you are causing it to enter the hive via the bees. Aren't you?

Not that this matters to me.

**Barry** · 11-22-2011, 10:04 AM

How is it entering the hive?

**Michael Bush** · 11-22-2011, 06:43 PM

>According to the "Unique Forum Rules" decided on by the forum users, the above would not disqualify the hives as being "treatment free".

The purpose of the rules is not to qualify or disqualify anyone's hive as being "treatment free" or not. The purpose is to define the topic to avoid discussions that are off topic. Everyone keeps their hives however they like no one is setting rules as to how anyone can keep their bees.

> Also, according to the rules, it seems when Gardstar is used as a ground treatment that it shouldn't disqualify a hive since it is used outside of the hive (I really don't think anybody's going to spray pemethrin inside the hive).

I don't see it as "qualifying" or "disqualifying" anyone for anything, but it seems to me that discussing GardStar or permethrin in any context would be off topic for this forum and more appropriate for the main Bee Forum.

**Solomon Parker** · 11-22-2011, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by Michael Bush

The purpose of the rules is not to qualify or disqualify anyone's hive as being "treatment free" or not. The purpose is to define the topic to avoid discussions that are off topic. Everyone keeps their hives however they like no one is setting rules as to how anyone can keep their bees.

Mike, I'm going to use this in the rules if you don't mind.

**Solomon Parker** · 11-22-2011, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by Intheswamp

... according to the rules, it seems when Gardstar is used as a ground treatment that it shouldn't disqualify a hive since it is used outside of the hive

Gardstar is specifically listed as a treatment.

The purpose of the treatment-free paradigm in my mind is to help bring forth a bee which is capable of handling all pests, diseases, and parasites without human intervention. Ultimately, the purpose of the forum is to discuss how to do that, not to go through with a magnifying glass and figure out what counts and what doesn't. This is not a certification program. This is a forum. We discuss keeping bees without treatments. If you want to do that, please stay and enjoy yourself and offer your experiences to others. If you don't have any intention of doing that, it's best for all that you go enjoy one of the other forums which has more in common with your tastes and practices as a beekeeper.

Endlessly arguing over the definition has become tedious. It's time to stop.

**beeware10** · 11-22-2011, 08:46 PM

LOTS of gray areas.

**Keth Comollo** · 11-22-2011, 08:55 PM

I don't see any grey area at all. If some want to go treatment free then it should include everything around the hive as far as the owner has control over. Putting fire ant control on your lawn is a treatment. Is it a treatment that could affect nearby hives?? Certainly.

In my humble opinion you either commit or not to be treatment free. I am close and applaud those that attempt it.

**rwurster** · 11-22-2011, 11:57 PM

I found the rules of this forum to be pretty straight forward and well defined.

**Michael Bush** · 11-23-2011, 01:21 AM

>Mike, I'm going to use this in the rules if you don't mind.

Please do. Maybe this is too long winded, but how about this:

The purpose of having rules is not to qualify or disqualify anyone's hive as being "treatment free" or not. The purpose is to define the topic to avoid discussions that are off topic. Everyone keeps their hives however they like no one is setting rules as to how anyone can keep their bees. This forum, as several of the forums are, is for a specific interest group to discuss how to do a specific thing. It is very distracting to have people in a fourm such as this or a forum such as the top bar forum digressing everytime a topic comes up on why the very subject of the forum is wrong or how to do something that is contrary to the very purpose of the forum.

**Intheswamp** · 11-23-2011, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by Solomon Parker

Endlessly arguing over the definition has become tedious. It's time to stop.

I simply was seeking clarification of the rules/definitions of this forum being as they appear to be understandably important to the forum. Strangely, it seems I've received chastisement for an answer, at the very best a frown...is this in the spirit of beesource.com?

I apologize for having disturbed the forum with my post.

My single post really rates as endless arguing? I've stopped.

**Barry** · 11-23-2011, 03:33 PM

No need to apologize. Your post is welcome here.

**KQ6AR** · 11-24-2011, 10:07 AM

Hi Ed,
One of our local UC entomologist told me the SHB leave the CD case with the poison, & take it back into the hive. Something you might want to think about.

[QUOTE=Intheswamp;728473]

A hive has a cd case containing fipronil inside attached to the *outside* of it's screened bottom board. No other treatment (as defined by the rules in the treatment free forum) are used in this hive. Would this hive be considered "treatment free" being as the fipronil is on the outside of the hive?

A shb bait hive (entrance reduced to prevent bees from entering) is set up in the bee yard with the same cd traps and fipronil used in it...would this disqualify the neighboring beehives from being treatment free?