Mentors

[Roland]

Mr Bush wrote:
But in simple English "treatment free" means you don't treat. And if you "treat for mites" it means you do treat. You either do or you don't.

Outside this forum, I would agree with you entirely, but if I am understanding the rules correctly, simple English does not apply. I treat(kill) my mites with a method that is not considered a treatment. Simple English would say that I treat my mites without using synthetic chemicals.

Rwurster, send me a PM for details. Most of it is just plain intensive beekeeping.

Barry, not sure it is safe for Flatlanders up here(You are very welcome)

Crazy Roland

[Barry]

I'll take my chances!

[Solomon Parker]

I treat(kill) my mites with a method that is not considered a treatment. Simple English would say that I treat my mites without using synthetic chemicals.

I'm gonna agree with you on the second part, but the first part is still a bit foggy since you haven't actually explained what these methods are despite requests to do so.

The best comparison I can think of is treated wood, and compare it to for instance freezing drone brood. You can treat wood with some chemical that keeps it from rotting, you could vacuum seal it in a dark room, but you wouldn't be able to use it, and you can also burn it which will also keep it from rotting. You can treat for mites in a way that hopefully just kills the mites or with drone brood, you kill the mites while also killing the drones. You could also just burn the hive and then you'd have no mites and no bees. That's why we call it a manipulation. You can manipulate the frame into the freezer, kill the mites, and manipulate it back into the hive without introducing a foreign substance (be it synthetic chemical, naturally derived chemical, or other) into the hive.

Ultimately, we'd still like to know what methods you use, if you can find the time. We'd appreciate it.

[sqkcrk]

If one uses Management Techniques to minimize Varroa, such as scratching capped drone comb every 14 days, is that a "treatment"? Which basically is what Roland does. Is a nonchemical means of control a "treatment"? I would say, imo, technically NO.

Were one setting up standards, like one does for "Organic Farming" associations, I would think that what Roland does would qualify as "Treatment Free Beekeeping".

[Solomon Parker]

If one uses Management Techniques to minimize Varroa, such as scratching capped drone comb every 14 days, is that a "treatment"?

Read the Unique Forum Rules. There really is no need to ask.

Were one setting up standards, like one does for "Organic Farming" associations, I would think that what Roland does would qualify as "Treatment Free Beekeeping".

Recall when we voted for the forum definition for "Treatment-Free Beekeeping". You didn't vote, which is fine, I respect you for that.

Treatment-Free Beekeeping: There is no treatment free beekeeping. Any manipulations, (pharmacologically or physically), that alter the natural biological status quo of the inner workings of a colony of bees can be considered a treatment.

This is the definition Roland voted for. So he qualifies for exactly what he says he qualifies for. He doesn't treat with synthetic chemicals, however he defines synthetic chemicals.



Again I will repeat this. The Treatment-Free Beekeeping Forum is not standard. It is not a certification program. It is not a benchmark. It is a forum with the purpose of discussing how to keep bees without treating them. If anyone is not interested in doing that, please exit now. There are plenty of forums on this website to address your own method of beekeeping.

I'd really like to see discussions in Beekeeping 101 to discover the exact definition of "101." How ridiculous.

[Roland]

Sol wrote:

I'm gonna agree with you on the second part, but the first part is still a bit foggy since you haven't actually explained what these methods are despite requests to do so.

Forgive me, because I thought it was common knowledge that I strike drone brood, like SQKCRK said.

Crazy Roland

[Solomon Parker]

How do you work that into your schedule? Is it every time you get into a hive you scratch drone brood? Do you carry a cappings scratcher with you? What effects do you encounter with this method?

[Daniel Y]

I think this is the first I have heard of "Scratching drone brood" from the conversation on this page alone I gather you need to do it every 14 days?
I already understand the reason for targeting drone brood but am curious as to how well that every 14 days thing works out. I have also read in other places that disturbing the hive even slightly will set the hive back a couple of days. So I am also interested in any side effects that have been observed in disturbing the brood nest.

[jim lyon]

Sol says:
Again I will repeat this. The Treatment-Free Beekeeping Forum is not standard. It is not a certification program. It is not a benchmark. It is a forum with the purpose of discussing how to keep bees without treating them. If anyone is not interested in doing that, please exit now.

I understand your frustration Sol, but you must concede that this forum always has been about an "all in or all out" approach to the issue of treatments. It has never been about doing what's necessary to keep your hives strong while reducing treatments, in short it has never been about the goal of being treatment free. So, yeah, I think there is a standard if you want to be considered anything more than being a trouble maker here, and the standard is a "cold turkey, only the fittest shall survive" perspective of keeping bees. I have reduced my treatments dramatically in recent years, we still do some treating and it is done very responsibly and I totally reject the notion by anyone that all treatments affect the purity of the products produced by the hive. I will never stop looking for methods of beekeeping that reduce the need to treat and products that are even safer to use with the goal of never having to treat but until that day I concede that I will always be relegated to the status of an outsider on here.

[Barry]

If one uses Management Techniques to minimize Varroa, such as scratching capped drone comb every 14 days, is that a "treatment"? Which basically is what Roland does. Is a nonchemical means of control a "treatment"? I would say, imo, technically NO.

I agree. According to how this forum defines treatment free, Roland certainly is treatment free.

[Solomon Parker]

I'm sorry you feel that way Jim, I value your input. I have always embraced efforts to use less chemicals, or to use softer chemicals, and got myself in trouble some times for it. I still recommend buying bees from fat/beeman even though he uses FGMO. You gotta take what you can get.

Ultimately the goal for me and others, nay not just a goal because we have succeeded, is to get off the treadmill permanently and completely. And we're more than happy to tell you every little detail of how we did it. And that's ultimately what the forum is for. As I get in to breeding more, I plan to incorporate that in as well, though Mr. Bush already does. I think breeding is very important.

For commercial beekeepers, I realize it is much more difficult to get off the treadmill. I'm not trying to say one size fits all. But for this forum, treatment-free is the goal. Some have gotten there, some are still on the journey.

[Barry]

in short it has never been about the goal of being treatment free.

I'd like to state that I don't want this forum to be so narrow in focus that this can't be part of it. There needs to be room for those with the goal of treatment free to be able to discuss how to get there. With this mindset, there can actually be discussion about treatments. It's a fine line to walk, but one I feel needs to be allowed with proper understanding.

[Roland]

Sol asked:

How do you work that into your schedule?

It is our schedule. Every 12-14 days we do a full inspection of the brood chamber.

Is it every time you get into a hive you scratch drone brood?

Yes/NO. Every time we visit a beehive we STRIKE the drone brood.

Do you carry a cappings scratcher with you?

No, just a hive tool.

What effects do you encounter with this method?

Very few drones, and very few mites. Every year we are a little less diligent(quit sooner in the season). That way we apply selective pressure at a rate that the bees can adapt to.

Daniel - you can believe that inspections disrupt a hive, be believe otherwise.(no insult intended)

Jim Lyon - well stated, I concur. It has been my point for a long time that you do not need to let the bees die, just the queen. The problem is that it takes better observation skills than just letting them die.

Crazy Roland

[Seymore]

Wow... I got so caught up there in that last part I forgot this thread was about mentors!

Forgive me, because I thought it was common knowledge that I strike drone brood, like SQKCRK said...Crazy Roland

One thing, Crazy, we newer folks don't know who the heck you are or how the heck you do things. Not meant mean, just saying... in case it's been a while since you encountered one of us.

What I would have given for someone to follow and to teach me. Glad you have that opp Rw! As you said, a crash course in beekeeping. Probably saving you a few years on the learning curve. (color me green!)

[Daniel Y]

Roland, It is not my belief that inspections disrupt the hive. In fact it is the belief of Howland Blackiston, Author of Beekeeping for Dummies, President and Co-founder of bee-commerce.com. I believe Jay Smith also mentions it. I am not certain about Jay I just know that BK for Dummies is not the first place I saw it mentioned. I know this because when I read Dummies it was information I was already aware of.

[sqkcrk]

Roland, It is not my belief that inspections disrupt the hive.

The opening up of and manipulation of a hive can disrupt the routine of a colony to a greater or lesser degree. Whether harm or noticable detrimental effects occur is problematic and not often verifiable. It , the disruption, could be minimal, such as a break in foraging, or it could be somewhat catastrophic if the queen is killed.

You could liken it to the effect of a visitor to a factory floor. Were it you or I, not much production lost. Were it the President of the United States, all production quotas for the day could be lost.

[Roland]

SQKCRK wrote:

Whether harm or noticable detrimental effects occur is problematic and not often verifiable.

Very true. We only know what we do with our bees, with no comparison to others. As a test, we invited a fellow beekeeper(and her husband) to sit on our stools, and do our job. They where instructed what look for, and what to do. We must be doing something alright, because they had never worked hives with so many bees.

Crazy Roland