View Poll Results: Are beetle traps treatments?

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34. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    10 29.41%
  • No

    24 70.59%
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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
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    Denver, Colorado
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    Default Should Small Hive Beetle traps be considered treatments?

    I've been wondering for a long time whether beetle traps should be considered as treatments.

    My hives don't suffer from SHBs though they are around and I do see them in the hives pretty regularly. But it still begs the question.

    Here are some thoughts. Beetle traps are placed in the hive, but they aren't treating the bees. The contents of the trap should never under normal circumstances come in contact with the bees unlike every other treatment as we have defined them. Another question is whether or not the bees are able or ever would be able to deal with beetles on their own or whether as some may have claimed with varroa that they would kill off all the bees given the chance. Are the bees dependent on the traps or are they in use for the sake of production?

    What are your thoughts?
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    26,234

    Default Re: Should Small Hive Beetle traps be considered treatments?

    Are they used to treat bees or beetles? SHBs aren't pests of honeybees, in the true sense, they are pests of the equipment, the combs. So, in one sense the traps treat the hive, but not the colony. I guess.

    Not being treatment free I didn't vote.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Baker Oregon
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    2,367

    Default Re: Should Small Hive Beetle traps be considered treatments?

    Seems to me they would fall into a similar category of mouse guards or SBB's.

    Dan
    Dan Hayden 4 Years. 9 hives. Tx Free. USDA Zone 5b.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Ravenna, Ohio, USA
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    308

    Default Re: Should Small Hive Beetle traps be considered treatments?

    I would consider it a treatment, as you are likely using apple-cider vinegar and/or vegetable or mineral oil in the well. Granted, these are not active chemical agents, but these are still foreign substances to a hive's natural chemistry. Although the bees shouldn't be able to access the well, the beetles will. I wouldn't use beetle traps unless I felt I had a high population of beetles in the hive that I didn't want to allow. So, to me, I would be "treating" for the beetles--to eliminate a potential pest.

    That being said, beetles never winter well in Northeast Ohio and seldom present a real issue year over year. If they find a home (usually introduced through packages in our area), they only hasten the decline of poor colonies left unchecked--with other issues that were really killing the colony.

    Just my 2.
    Blue Sky Bee Supply
    Quality Bee Supplies, Bees and Containers!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Pueblo, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    654

    Default Re: Should Small Hive Beetle traps be considered treatments?

    Im treatment free and although i have never had any problems with beetles it seems that they are more of a piece of hardware, such as an in-hive feeder would be. Ive never used them personally.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Poplar Bluff, Missouri, USA
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    2,280

    Default Re: Should Small Hive Beetle traps be considered treatments?

    I gave up considering myself treatment free for the forum purposes when folks argued that feeding sugar syrup was a treatment. Then the debate about HBH, and now SHB traps. Those in northern climes have the luxury of this "discussion." The rest will either trap, or lose their hives.
    Regards,
    Steven
    "If all you have is a hammer, the whole world is a nail." - A.H. Maslow

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Albemarle County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    34

    Default Re: Should Small Hive Beetle traps be considered treatments?

    What SHB traps are you using? I tried the beetle blaster traps and never found many SHB in them despite seeing plenty of SHB whenever I go into my hives. For me to consider the traps "treatment", I'd have to see that they actually did something.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
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    Poplar Bluff, Missouri, USA
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    Default Re: Should Small Hive Beetle traps be considered treatments?

    I tried the cd traps, but they didn't work very well. Had very good luck with AJ Beetleeaters, and the newer Beetlejails. So far I like the Beetlejails, they seem to do as well as Aj's, and are much cheaper. I use 2-4 per hive.
    Regards,
    Steven
    "If all you have is a hammer, the whole world is a nail." - A.H. Maslow

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
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    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    3,543

    Default Re: Should Small Hive Beetle traps be considered treatments?

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenG View Post
    Those in northern climes have the luxury of this "discussion." The rest will either trap, or lose their hives.
    ...this either/or ignores the many beekeepers who don't use traps (in Florida and other southern climes) and don't lose their hives....or are you claiming they don't exist?

    deknow

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
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    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    Default Re: Should Small Hive Beetle traps be considered treatments?

    ...to the original question....
    it really depends on what one's reasons for being "treatment free" is.
    if one simply doesn't want to risk contaminating the food they are going to eat, feed their family, or sell to the public, then most beetle traps, used properly are not going to cause problems.

    otoh, if one is looking to select bees that can handle the beetles for breeding purposes, then a trap is problematic.

    deknow

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
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    Default Re: Should Small Hive Beetle traps be considered treatments?

    That's a good point. If you want to protect your food, go organic. If you want to work for the health of the bees long term, go treatment-free. That's my methodology.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
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    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    Default Re: Should Small Hive Beetle traps be considered treatments?

    ...and if you want to be ambiguous as to what your practices are, claim "organic" or "ipm"

    deknow

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Brandon, MS USA
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    1,585

    Default Re: Should Small Hive Beetle traps be considered treatments?

    It really depends on the year, location, situation... shb migrations can fluctuate from a few per hive one season to thousands per hive the next... in the later case, there is really no chance of selecting from genetics that can truly withstand them... its like trying to select for fire proof bees by lighting every hive on fire... BUT there is a way to use traps to limit the assaults and still select for specific control levels...

    The traps that do not kill shb, but rather give the bees a place to imprison them will not overly assist the bees, but will give them a chance to learn that shb are a threat and give the breeder a chance to see which hives are more effective at keeping them at bay...

    Interesting side note about that... I recently received a letter from the state of MS saying that a certain inspector claims that the product "Beetle Juice" should be registered as a pesticide... HONEY a pesticide?? Pollen a pesticide?? Pollen Substitutes as pesticides?? Cane sugar a pesticide??

    It appears that the while the epa and nearly all state codes definition of pesticides do not include an attractant made of foods (that the pest would naturally feed upon, such as cheese in a mouse trap), the state of MS has a slightly extended definition adding the words "or attractants"... but is broad and does not define "attractants" like the epa does as being "substances other than food".

    So, we have been asked to register the ingredients of the product as pesticides... I of course have requested that the state consider this for exemption, as it is clearly not the laws intent... its likened to using a stronger smelling Sharp cheddar in mouse traps within an American Cheese production facility... its the same ingredients that are in the hives already, just allowed to smell stronger and be applied in a trap...

    So how about you guys? How would you feel about someone forcing your honey to be labeled as a pesticide????...

    (this honey and pollen is collected from hives that have never been treated BTW, not that it matters for this issue, but it mattered to me in the production of the product)...

    The larger picture is that once one state claims it as a pesticide, it can legally be deemed that by anyone.... NOT happening!

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    213

    Default Re: Should Small Hive Beetle traps be considered treatments?

    Treatment free is in the eye of the beholder IMO As stated earlier, is feeding syrup a treatment to keep bees healthy and alive? Yup...Interesting that formic and oxalic acids are naturally occur in honey, yet when those chemicals are used as treatment for mites it is regarded as such even though there's no appreciable increase in concentration of said chemicals in honey from hives treated.

    So really those who are of the treatment free are really splitting hairs with the term as true treatment free is adding nothing foreign into the hives whether it be sugar, vegetable oil, sticky boards or whatever.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
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    Crenshaw County, Alabama
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    Default Re: Should Small Hive Beetle traps be considered treatments?

    Yes..
    Last edited by Intheswamp; 10-25-2011 at 06:49 AM. Reason: to adhere to rules

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
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    Denver, Colorado
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    5,033

    Default Re: Should Small Hive Beetle traps be considered treatments?

    This question is solely about beetle traps. The rest have been litigated ad nauseum and the results are in the Unique Forum Rules.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Franklin County, PA
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    457

    Default Re: Should Small Hive Beetle traps be considered treatments?

    Personally I don't consider a trap a treatment. When I think of a treatment I think of something that is invasive into the health of the bees. The traps I prefer are cd traps and they're basically just a dead end entrance door for a beetle that doesn't belong in the hive anyway. The traps would be I would say in the same category as a screened bottom board. The mites fall through out of the hive. Is a screened bottom board a treatment? Perhaps beetle traps would be a treatment to some but I'm not super up on the treatment free guidelines.
    Best Wishes to the Beetle Juice team with the exemption. If logic dictates the outcome I would think you will be ok but perhaps they will make it more difficult than that, I hope not . Beetle juice and cd traps helped me trap more beetles than I expected this season. I don't know where the beetles are coming from but they're here. Best Wishes to everyone, VW

  18. #18
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    Dec 2002
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    Denver, Colorado
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    Default Re: Should Small Hive Beetle traps be considered treatments?

    Well, it looks like a pretty solid ~2:1 margin against the idea that beetle traps are treatments. Until changes, I think I will list beetle traps under 'Manipulations' in the Unique Forum Rules.

    Myself, I am a purist, so I disagree, but I can still be civil and bow to the will of the people. As long as the oil or whatever substance is used doesn't get into the hive or honey, I wouldn't mind eating the honey from it.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,330

    Default Re: Should Small Hive Beetle traps be considered treatments?

    I agree with Bluesky. If there is any chance/way the substance within a trap can be brought out of it and into the greater hive, it has become a treatment. Can we safely say it's Hotel California, "You can checkout any time you like, But you can never leave!"
    Regards, Barry

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Kensington, Maryland, USA
    Posts
    63

    Default Re: Should Small Hive Beetle traps be considered treatments?

    I am late to this discussion by a week or so, but I agree with Barry, and therefore bluesky. If the trap includes a chemical mite strip, boric acid, or other things that can get out and negatively affect the bees, its a treatment. Trapping/corralling is a behavior that bees exhibit; squishing them with a hive tool or long tipped tweezers is a behavior that beekeepers exhibit. Neither are treatments!

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