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  1. #141
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    5,433

    Default Re: Starting out in treatment-free beekeeping

    Sol. When you started talking about what was back then, you were talking about genetic material. Now it seems to have changed to books.

    No need to tell me to "get on Michael Bushes web site and read all his old beekeeping books". I read (and owned) Jay Smith's books, before you were born Sol. Bushes web site didn't exist then, nor had his beekeeping journey even begun. There's a world outside just what you know, Sol.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  2. #142
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Fayetteville, Arkansas
    Posts
    5,018

    Default Re: Starting out in treatment-free beekeeping

    Some things change, some things stay the same. Young guys disrespect the old guys because things aren't the way they used to be. Old guys disrespect the young guys because things just aren't the way they used to be. Such is life.

    We don't speak the same language and so you think I insult you. So you insult me because of my youth and inexperience. Such is life.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  3. #143
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    TORONTO,ON. CANADA
    Posts
    175

    Big Grin Re: Starting out in treatment-free beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    We don't speak the same language and so you think I insult you. .
    I believe there are very few people who speak or understand your language Mr. Parker.
    With that barrier present I don't think people get insulted with your "talk".
    ==Northumberland County Beekeeper, Trent Hills, Ontario==

  4. #144
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    5,433

    Default Re: Starting out in treatment-free beekeeping

    Agreed .
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  5. #145
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Fayetteville, Arkansas
    Posts
    5,018

    Default Re: Starting out in treatment-free beekeeping

    Anyway, as far as genetics go, dead queens dont contribute anything. In my experience, poor performers usually die over winter so they get pretty well weeded out. The purpose of my plan is to help the newbee get enough hives so as to weather that first winter without losing everything.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  6. #146
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,433

    Default Re: Starting out in treatment-free beekeeping

    There can be many reasons why they die over winter and some of them are beekeeper related rather than the bees fault.

    If they go into winter healthy, properly housed, and enough feed, they'll survive.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  7. #147
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    8,425

    Default Re: Starting out in treatment-free beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    The purpose of my plan is to help the newbee get enough hives so as to weather that first winter without losing everything.
    If they go into winter healthy, properly housed, and enough feed, they'll survive.

    Why do you assume they will die in the first year? If they were a good package, or nuc to start with they are not going to die without some help from the beekeeper in the first year (leaving out weather conditions). That first year gives the newbie a chance to make all his detrimental mistakes and learn from them. For some it might take two tries. When you hit that mark of successfully getting the colony (just for Mark) to make it through one year then I say you are ready for expansion. Not before.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  8. #148
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfield County, Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    3,593

    Default Re: Starting out in treatment-free beekeeping

    Acebird,

    Why would you assume that healthy bees from Georgia would "naturally" survive the winter in another area?

    Utica NY just wont have that down-home feel that those Georgia bees are accustomed to.
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  9. #149
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    8,425

    Default Re: Starting out in treatment-free beekeeping

    I am not in favor of taking bees out of their area. I am sure Soloman isn't either. Although I don't believe getting healthy bees from the south to live in the north means instant doom either. I believe the bees will adapt if they are healthy. I think the real question is are they healthy?
    We were told our queen came from Hawaii and the sperm came from Europe. I killed the first colony and the second and third are still thriving and they likely came with SHB. As a newbie and a hobbyist I do not want to rear queens. I may do a walk away split but I feel an expert should raise queens or it should be left to nature. I feel I am as much treatment free as Solomon is. He has his plan and I am happy with mine.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  10. #150
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    24,495

    Default Re: Starting out in treatment-free beekeeping

    You do know that your bees originally originated from the Mediteranian and from other parts of Europe, don't you. So, they have already been taken out of their area.

    Bees from the south have thrived in the north for ages. There may be some slight advantage of locally raised bees, chosen for wintering ability, but, everything being equal, bees from FL, Hawaii or CA should survive the winter in NY just as well.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  11. #151
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
    Posts
    2,771

    Default Re: Starting out in treatment-free beekeeping

    A little BBQ Sub will greatly enhance the chances of a southern bee surviving in the North.

  12. #152
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Fayetteville, Arkansas
    Posts
    5,018

    Default Re: Starting out in treatment-free beekeeping

    I recommend newbees purchase bees from a local treatment-free beekeeper. If that doesn't work, try to get bees from somewhere north of you. Michael Bush is about 7 hours directly north of me, so he's the perfect source since I'm willing to drive that far. This last year, I purchased queens from Zia, some of which they source from UP Michigan. We'll see how they winter.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  13. #153
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    24,495

    Default Re: Starting out in treatment-free beekeeping

    Two Growth Zones?
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  14. #154
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
    Posts
    2,468

    Default Re: Starting out in treatment-free beekeeping

    From an earlier post:


    So, is it possible that during the conversion to small cell, following the collapse, the only bees that will be successful are the genetically smaller bees and that those bees, as a result of their reduced size have a shorter pupation period?

    This line of thinking seems to have merit, that it is not the immediate environment effect on the bee of being in a small cell , but rather the accumulated selection process that has favored a smaller bee, and the favorable genetics, what ever they are, that are associated with the smaller bee.

    CRazy Roland

  15. #155
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    43,492

    Default Re: Starting out in treatment-free beekeeping

    >So, is it possible that during the conversion to small cell, following the collapse...

    There were not survivors to breed from when I went to small cell with commercial stock. There were no losses to Varroa after I regressed even with commercial stock. The model that small cell beekeepers are breeding from survivors, and, in this scenario, breeding from smaller bees just isn't consistent with my experience. It's a nice theory if you assume small cell beekeepers all have big losses and that genetics is the key. But many of us did not have significant losses and were using commercial stock.

    http://www.bushfarms.com/beessctheories.htm
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  16. #156
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    5,433

    Default Re: Starting out in treatment-free beekeeping

    Hmmm.. Well I hope that's true for the sc ones I'm starting.

    But I got to say, nearly everything I've read on that by sc folks has said you do have to have big losses. It's certainly the impression I've gained since being on beesource.

    Maybe it's not nessecary to have big losses. But since some folks had big losses anyway, they assume that's part of the process.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  17. #157
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    1,191

    Default Re: Starting out in treatment-free beekeeping

    Just wanted to post a couple of thoughts about moving to small cell and going treatment free. I was using chems until 6 years ago. When I converted, I moved just the center combs of the brood nest to small cell and I purchased some queens from Purvis and I found some feral stock that happened to be varroa tolerant. Long story short, I credit genetics with being a major part of keeping my bees alive over the last 6 years. I converted to all small cell over the last 5 years. An inspection of my colonies shows very very few varroa mites. Whether it is genetics or small cell, I could care less. I care that my bees are making it just fine without any treatments.

    Did I have any losses? Sure did. I lost about half of my colonies and replaced them with splits each spring. Do I still see losses? Yes, but way less than 10% and when I do have losses, it is almost always things like queen failure or other things that can go wrong.

    DarJones
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  18. #158
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    8,425

    Default Re: Starting out in treatment-free beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    Did I have any losses? Sure did. I lost about half of my colonies and replaced them with splits each spring.
    How do you do the splits? Do you walk away or add a commercial queen to the queenless hive?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  19. #159
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,426

    Default Re: Starting out in treatment-free beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    Nope. Dee and Ed Lusby in Arizona dreamt it up.
    That isn't quite accurate. Dee and Ed noticed that looking through equipment from different eras that the cell size seemed to change. Despite the fact that this has always been documented in the ABC and XYZ, it seemed to take the research community by surprise that this is the case.

    More of this video is forthcoming, but here is the first few minutes of Dr. Erikson (Director of the Tucson Bee Lab at the time.....years before AHB was found in the area) talking about the process of "dreaming up" small cell.

  20. #160
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    1,191

    Default Re: Starting out in treatment-free beekeeping

    I have not purchased any queens in the last 6 years except the original 10 gold line queens from Purvis. I raise a round of queens every other year to requeen the occasional colony that needs it and I make a few nucs up each spring to replace die-outs. I have deliberately avoided restricting the genetics by using all queens for breeding so long as their mite tolerance is very good. Please note that at this point the Purvis genetics is less than 40% and the feral genetics is about 60%. I found the feral queens to be significantly better honey producers and just as mite tolerant as the Purvis stock.

    DarJones
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

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