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Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

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#1 ·
I’m a beginner. This has been my second year raising queens – my third year keeping honey bees. So I am in no way pretending to be any kind of an expert. But Joseph Clemens has generously agreed for me to share some of my experiences using his method of queen rearing.

For anyone who is interested this thread starter is based on a broader post about my experiences as a beginner at queen rearing.

The Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher System

The system that I’ve been using is what I call the Joseph Clemens System – because that is where I heard about it from, and because Joseph Clemens has proven that it works by producing very large, high quality cells and queens using this system. I have found that it is very well suited for me to produce a fair number of queens while learning skills that can be scaled up to higher production later if desired. It’s fun, affordable, and you can use it even if you only have a few hives.

This system uses a queenless five frame nucleus with 4 medium frames of bees and a cell bar as a combined Starter/Finisher and produces 10-20 cells (more or less) at a time – and it can be used all season without having to be rebuilt. As you can imagine this is much more manageable for hobbyists than the way the commercial guys do it.

You can use this system over and over throughout the season without having to repopulate the starter/finisher hives, and you can use it just about any time that you want without having to do a lot of prep work – once you get it going . This system also avoids the problem of having to manage a cell builder hive that is on the verge of swarming by being Queenless – no matter how strong it is, a hive won’t swarm without a queen. When I first read about it, I thought that it sounded like such a hive would develop laying workers or some other problem because of being queenless for an indefinite time. But, because you give it fresh brood about once a week none of those problems crop up – it just gets really strong and stays that way all season long. It really does.


One of my best batch of cells using this method. I’m still learning, but next year these will be my “regular” sized cells instead of just the best ones. I hope.



This is the setup I started the season with – the top box houses a quart jar feeder. Before long I realized that the small entrance (with a piece of excluder over it) through the slatted rack was too small for such a populous hive, and that the ventilation was not adequate.



So, I changed to this setup – from the bottom – Screened bottom board, queen excluder, 5 frame medium hive body plus the same inner cover, feed shim, and tele cover as in the previous picture.

Setting up the Cell Builder Hive

The two outer frames are capped/emerging brood, the next two contain stores – honey and pollen, maybe some empty space for them to draw comb and store incoming food. The center position is where you will be putting your cell bar after you graft.

You want this hive to be very populous, so shake in lots of nurse bees. After the initial setup the cell builder will stay strong – even get stronger – from the frames of brood that you swap in every week.

Once a week (more or less) when you are working your other hives swap in a fresh frame of capped/emerging brood. The open brood on those frames along with the grafts and other open brood that you add to the cell builder keep it strong and stable. When you swap in new brood, you also have to check for queen cells in the starter/finisher, and on any frames that you take out – you will find wild cells pretty much every time. But since it’s only a 5 frame hive, and it doesn’t have a queen you can shake the bees off, and thoroughly inspect every frame in just a few minutes. Usually there is no need to even look at every frame – 2 of them will be pollen/honey, and one will be the cell bar. It’s pretty quick and easy maintenance, but it does have to be done at least once a week while the hive is being used.

How I (and you can ) Finally produce Big Cells

I tried fruitlessly almost all of this year to produce big cells like Josephs. I packed my cell builder with bees which I fed copiously, I tried double grafting, priming with royal jelly, placing fewer grafts – but no matter how hard I tried my best cells were “OK” at best (did get some nice queens though) – until I found this tip by Ray Marler: 4 days before you graft put a frame of hatching eggs/young open larva in the cell builder. That will insure that your nurse bees get into feeding mode by the time you add your grafts. My experience is that if I skip this step I get much smaller cells. Joseph Clemens produces nice big cells without this step, I think because he is continuously using his cell builder – so the bees stay in feeding/nurse bee mode – while I was only adding grafts to my cell builder every week or two.

When you swap in the cell bar with grafts on it there will almost certainly be queen cells started on the “primer” frame of open brood - At that time also check the other frames for queen cells. If you ever let one emerge it will ruin any cells that are currently in the hive – and you might have a hard time finding a virgin lose in such a crowded hive.

I feed my cell builder hive continuously – 1 to 1 sugar syrup from an inverted quart jar, and under the jar lid…



…Pollen substitute. I just spoon it in through the hole, and cover it with the jar lid. This is 8% protein mega bee mix with enough syrup to make a paste that is thick enough to not fall through the frames. The bees love it.

I hope this is helpful to anyone thinking about trying queen rearing.
 
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#35 ·
Dave, can you give an "exploded" view of the anatomy of your nuc box? It appears as if there is a 2" extension cleated above the SBB. Why wouldn't you use a deep? essplain porfivore
 
#38 ·
Yes, that 2" extension is a slatted rack to give them some room. I didn't use a deep nuc box because i didn't have one. I do all mediums so that is just what i have. I doubt if it makes much difference though. If you already have deep equipment then use it.
 
#40 ·
You need to remove cells on the 10th day after grafting - not too late on the 10th day for good measure.

It is safe to remove cells from the finisher as soon as they are capped - on the 4th - 5th day - but they will have to be put into an incubator if you do.

Some companies ship cells, so obviously they can be removed from incubation before they are about to emerge, but when it is safe to do that is probably highly technical and above my experience. It is safe to handle them gently on the tenth day.

It might sound obvious, but just for the record - if you graft on Saturday, then Sunday is the 1st day after grafting. At least that's what I mean by it.

There is some variation of schedules because of many factors, but especially temperature. If it is really hot, then you don't want to wait too late on day 10 to put your cells in nucs or it is quite likely that one will emerge and kill the rest.
 
#41 ·
David, thank you for working on this thread. I have studied your info and read 3 queen books this winter. I live in south west Florida and it is early Spring here. 80degrees during the day now and 60 at night. I have used a version of the Clemmons system 3 rounds so far. The first try I had 4 capped cells and 2 hatched .#1 (Eve) hatched in the incubator on day 10. I introduced her to a new nuc by direct introduction on top of the frames. She had a full frame of brood on both sides at day 15 following introduction. #2 went into a nuc and is now laying also. The other two never hatched and when I opened them up they were partially developed and died in the cell.round two, I had twenty cells capped at day 5. I was really excited. When I went to take them out on day 10 all were chewed open. I neglected to check for starter queen cells. I took the virgins and bees from the starter nuc and made up a ten frame hive and she is laying now, so all was not lost.round three and I had 19 started cells and 13 were capped and removed at ten days. I installed them today into nucs and grafted round 4. I really feel like I am getting the hang of it. I am send this to you to THANK YOU for your work and for sharing the knowledge with all of us on the forum. I thought you would like to hear what I think is a success story, only possible because others shared info and took the time to help others. Jim
 
#42 ·
I appreciate you saying so, and your experience really highlights the great thing about learning with a system like this - you can easily use it over and over to sharpen your skills. Sounds like you are doing great.

BTW, If I had an incubator I would put cells in it as soon as they are capped I think. A friend of mine who is an actual queen producer does that to eliminate the chance of capped cells being torn back down in the finisher. I think he also uses some kind of cell protectors to keep an early bloomer from spoiling a batch. An incubator would be good to have.
 
#45 · (Edited)
What happens to the cell builder after you removed the first round of capped cells on the 10th day? Is it ready to be used right away? Do you split it up and put a fresh one together? Or do you simply keep adding fresh frames with capped brood to have a steady supply of hatching brood in the cell builder? Thank you for your time in putting this together David. I sure am excited to try grafting for the first time this spring!!
 
#46 ·
You can use it again right away, but as long as you are continuing to use it you need to give it at least one good frame of brood per week. When you place your new grafts you want them to be pretty much the only open brood in the hive, so ideally you give it frames of capped/emerging brood. Although there is almost always a few larva that they build queen cells from, so you have to check for those once a week too. Still, the maintenance doesn't take much time at all.

When you're finished queen rearing for the year just remove the queen includer (if used) and let a queen hatch into the cell builder - although you might want to put it into a larger hive setup first so that they don't immediately swarm.

I'm looking forward to this season too. Good Luck.
 
#52 ·
David,

Can you inspect too often?

I like Deans configuration. I am wondering if frames of stores flanking the cell bar & stores overhead would be a good way to go.

What is your pollen sub/syrup recipe?

When nurse bees become foragers, move cell builder & replace with weak nuc? Assuming you maintain a store supply.
Sponge w/H2o? for hydration?

Cage capped cells & leave in starter?
 
#53 ·
Can you inspect too often?
I don't think you are too likely to.

I like Deans configuration. I am wondering if frames of stores flanking the cell bar & stores overhead would be a good way to go.
You should try it.

What is your pollen sub/syrup recipe?

8% protein mega bee candy

1.25 cups water
1/2 liquid oz veg oil or shortening
5 pounds sugar
1 pound straight mega bee powder - without sugar already added.

Even though you don’t have to heat this to the very high temps that some recipes call for it will still burn you very badly if you get it on you – wear gloves, safety glasses, use a long spoon to stir, and if you use a mechanical mixer of any kind protect yourself from the possibility that you will slop some out. For Pete’s sake don’t do this in tee shirt and shorts.

a cordless drill with one of the blades from a powered hand mixer chucked in it is very helpful – almost essential, because it will be very thick after adding the megabee until you get it mixed.

In a large container bring the water and oil to a boil.

Leave heat on high.

Add 5 pounds of sugar, bring the mixture back to a boil stir pretty much constantly.

Remove from heat and add the mega bee. mix then pour out into mold. I use brownie tins sprayed with pam. In a few hours to a day or two it will set to the consistency of a sugar cube and will come out neatly.

This is what I feed as pollen sub, and it keeps really well in this hard candy form and isn't likely to be infested with hive beetle larva. To make patty to feed to weak hives or cell builders I crush some of this up and add a little bit of syrup to get the consistency I want


You can easily scale this up to make 30 pounds at a time - 25 lb sugar 5 lb megabee.


When nurse bees become foragers, move cell builder & replace with weak nuc? Assuming you maintain a store supply.
Sponge w/H2o? for hydration?
No, you just keep adding emerging brood every week to keep the nurse be population up. It will get really strong with foragers too, but it isn't really a problem. But if you want to you can certainly move it to a new spot to leave behind the foragers if you want to.

Cage capped cells & leave in starter?
I don't but it's probably a good idea.

Sorry I didn't see this question until just now.
 
#54 ·
David,

I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to do the write-up on this method that Joseph uses, and for sharing it as well as you did through this forum and your blog. I followed your instructions, and just checked my first batch of grafts to discover I had 87% of the cells take on the first attempt (27 out of 31). This method is a nice, minimal approach to grafting and uses very little resources from the bee yard.

Perfect for us little people.

I know that one can put a lot of effort into things for the internet, and wonder sometimes if anyone cares.

Well, I want you to know that your effort made a difference to me.

So thanks.

Adam
 
#57 ·
Wow, what a great thread for us novices. I have learned a lot and am ready to try my hand at this.

One simple question and I apologize if I missed something that already explains this. But why do we need to confine bees to the starter nuc for some period before grafts are introduced?

Thanks in advance.

Soapy
 
#58 · (Edited)
When the nurse bees have recently become queenless, they are much more motivated to build and grow queen cells. But, for subsequent batches, as long as all finished cells and rogue cells are regularly removed, they remain queenless, and waiting isn't as important. When the cell growing colony is first assembled, it seems to work better to wait overnight before giving new grafts. I try to spot rogue cells early, before they are capped (though this timing isn't critical - capped cells still have royal jelly that can be collected), then I collect the royal jelly from them and load it into a plastic glue syringe, to use for priming future grafts.

I've tried a few other things, adding them to what I do, in these past few years:
1) I build my cell growing nucs from 1-1/4" thick styrofoam board, with foil lining the entire inside of the nuc, and pieces of wood trim on the edges for reinforcement, especially of the frame rests. I put a few small 1/4" plastic tubes or straws in the bottom corners for drainage, but let the bees use the top for ventilation. I leave a small 3/4" wide area front and back on top for entrance and ventilation.

2) I feed pollen sub constantly, but only add 1:1 syrup when there is no flow on.

3) Similar techniques have been mentioned earlier in this thread, so I will describe this version, which I use, that I've found helpful to me> I get the largest cells, with the most RJ, when I place a frame of grafting age larvae into the cell builder overnight, then shaking those bees into the cell builder nuc, and removing that frame (and replacing whichever frame was removed to accommodate it), just before adding new grafts.
 
#59 ·
Joseph, I noticed this reluctance to build queen cells after a period of time also. I was told it was becasue the queenless bees had grown to old. made since. that is until I added several frames of young nurse bees and a frame of open brood including eggs. not one queen cell was produced from that entire frame.

This has caused me to rethink the long term cell starter. I am thinking that every frame of grafts will be introduced to a colony that was made queenless only 24 hours prior. I have no idea why colonies that have been queenless for a period of time will not make queen cells. I do know I have seen it for myself. And it is not all about age of the bees.
 
#60 · (Edited)
Daniel Y, I really haven't seen that, yet. I'm not sure what the differences are between how you're doing it and how I do it - which may be the key. When I add a fresh comb of emerging worker brood, each week, I make sure that it contains some eggs, so it can help suppress the development of laying workers as a problem (I also want that worker brood to be the target of any Varroa that might be present, instead of my queen cells). I've also found that if I have a 15 cell bar, or two in the builder (open or capped cells), when I add the frame of grafting age larvae, with attendant nurse bees (for an overnight visit), they often fail to start any additional cells on the frame of open worker larvae.

However, I do not run them forever. Every so often I break one down to restock mating nucs, one frame of bees from the cell builder and a cell for each 3-frame mating nuc compartment. I sometimes shake a frame into a weaker 5-frame nuc that I want to boost the population of.

And, just to see how it goes, I've relocated cell builders, leaving the field bees behind (I put a weaker nuc in its place so it benefits from the field bees), and added even more nurse bees, to see what differences that might make. Of course I make sure I'm feeding 1:1 to help compensate for the missing field bees. Also, when a comb has been filled with syrup or honey, I remove it and replace it with a fresh comb of either emerging brood, or one that has some pollen in it, but is only partially finished - giving the bees wax work to do, instead of encasing the queen cells in burr comb.

And, sometimes I take a batch of 22 finished cells, carefully remove a little bit of wax from their tips, if the bees haven't already done so, then gently insert them into California mini cages, placing them on a frame I made up just for that purpose. I then remove a frame from a cell builder and insert this incubator frame with the cage screens facing a comb of brood, and inspect it as the virgin queens are expected to emerge, so I can quickly transfer them to cages with attendants and candy - to be used as needed. During this process I also QA the new virgins, discarding any that don't appear well-formed.

-------------------
About the older cell builders no longer willing to build cells:
I have seen this, but only when there was a rogue virgin present. Earlier, when I was getting my feet wet, I would sometimes unintentionally overlook a stray queen cell and batches of grafts would mysteriously fall to take, until I located the rogue virgin and remove her. I keep my cell builders and mating nucs in the same yard, underneath a large mesquite tree. Every so often I would also find a similar issue, when a nearby virgin would find her way into my cell builders and destroy batches of cells, that's why I frequently use excluders to help reduce that happening.
 
#61 ·
Ok, I just have to ask. I tried grafting last week with a CLOSED cell builder last week. I am seeing that this system is entirely open from inception. Do I have it right? Transfer frames of pollen, honey, brood and shaken nurse bees and give them a day to acclimatize before introducing grafts?
 
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