Page 11 of 16 FirstFirst ... 910111213 ... LastLast
Results 201 to 220 of 313
  1. #201
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,113

    Default Re: Small Cell Studies

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    I was tired of talking about Varroa about a year after small cell resolved my Varroa problems...
    I've been getting that way lately. How many times do you have to tell the same story before people believe you? Sometimes they just never will.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  2. #202
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,551

    Default Re: Small Cell Studies

    Soooooo, you guys all rested up and ready for another all nighter?
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  3. #203
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Lakeland FL
    Posts
    855

    Default Re: Small Cell Studies

    Ill answer any questions but it was three years ago so i might not remember every thing. The hives were made in the spring with three frames of large cell brood. Within two months the three frames were rotated out so it was all 4.9 small cell. They were for the most part kept in separate yards. But never too far away from other beehives (<2mi) they were built up and ran for blueberries in MI then to summer honey in MI then to CA for almonds.

    They died while waiting for the almond bloom. the other hives that were treated in the same holding yard i lost around 25%. And for every one wondering about those 5 magical hives that made it They were mixed into the operation, or combined to make the grade.

    That is what i remember of it, not really something you want to remember lol. Of course this isn't to say it wont work for some, sounds like there are others who it works for.
    I know Rob Bliss (his forum name is pahavanter i think) also ran a large small cell trial with HSC i would like to hear his thoughts on it. Dave Mendes a large FL commercial beekeeper (7000+ hives) used to use all? small cell but does not use it any more. Not sure on all the details.
    A sideline friend of mine in FL runs about 150 hives used all small cell but always had mite problems he also dosen't use it any more.

    These are my observations of course i don't have any fancy study's that show my results. Oh wait i do its called my total net income and i can tell you small cell didn't help it out much.
    Nick


    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I agree. ST, please fill in the whole story with those hives. I know you're migratory. Where these hives mixed in with your other hives? Did you treat them at all? How were they started? How many of your "other" hives died that year? You know, all those things that potentially play into any hive loss.

  4. #204
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    6,065

    Default Re: Small Cell Studies

    Oh that's interesting. Didn't realise all those large scale trials had been done.

    Glad to hear about it too. I get tired of being told that commercial beekeepers are from the old days, won't try anything new. Next person to lay that one on me is going to get a quote from your post slapped on them.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  5. #205
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    6,065

    Default Re: Small Cell Studies

    Quote Originally Posted by swarm_trapper View Post
    These are my observations of course i don't have any fancy study's that show my results. Oh wait i do its called my total net income
    Ha Ha that's funny!

    Net income is the ultimate test in my books, too.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  6. #206
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    6,065

    Default Re: Small Cell Studies

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    How many times do you have to tell the same story before people believe you? Sometimes they just never will.
    If you really are seeking commiserations, the researchers who do these studies would be perfect, they must know the feeling well.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  7. #207
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    6,065

    Default Re: Small Cell Studies

    Yup! i can feel an all nighter coming on!
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  8. #208
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,113

    Default Re: Small Cell Studies

    Be warned, it's hardly supper time for the Oldtimer.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  9. #209
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    6,065

    Default Re: Small Cell Studies

    ...
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  10. #210
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    28,017

    Default Re: Small Cell Studies

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    I've been getting that way lately. How many times do you have to tell the same story before people believe you? Sometimes they just never will.
    Telling someone how to keep bees w/out chemical treatments is like making your Grandmothers' recipe for whatever. It never turns out like Grandmas', does it?

    So, I can believe that what you say works for you, but, how do I get it to work for me? You could tell me everything you can think of about how you do what you do, but I am not going to be able to replicate it exactly. For one thing, I don't live where you do. It could be as simple as that. Your location.

    Wintering in Brasher Falls, NY is different from wintering in Ithaca, NY. 250 miles apart.
    Mark Berninghausen
    Squeak Creek Apiaries



  11. #211
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,553

    Default Re: Small Cell Studies

    I have speculated (but have no actual experience at) what the results would be in the almonds with small cell (and published that speculation six or seven years ago). You have all of those infested hives all around, massive robbing and drifting. I'm not sure how much any hive can take of that. Just because your hive isn't raising Varroa doesn't mean it can handle a huge influx of Varroa from outside. I also wonder in the long run how much difference the thickness of the walls makes. I only really used the wax coated PermaComb to get them regressed and while I continued to use it, the majority of my combs are either natural comb or PF120s both have the .1mm thick walls of natural beeswax rather than .5mm walls of plastic. I don't have any theory as to why it would matter other than the density of the broodnest, but things often have unexpected ramifications.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  12. #212
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    28,017

    Default Re: Small Cell Studies

    Michael,
    Have you experienced obsewrving bees in almonds? I haven't. But, from all the photos I've seen, it appears to me as though one beekeeper takes his bees to his own holding yards before actually going into the groves and then those hives are taken to the groves and set out in plots of so many pallets at each drop. Photos I've seen show 6 or 8 pallets to a drop. (I wish I could get my apple people to see that first hand.)

    So, if what I have seen from way over here is correct, ones' exposure is pretty much only to oneself. Isn't it? And, whereas the potential for robbing is greater w/ semiloads of hives in one area, when I have experienced semiloads in one yard robbing is no more a problem than yds of 40. So I wouldn't characterize robbing as massive. But, maybe your experience is different and more first hand.
    Mark Berninghausen
    Squeak Creek Apiaries



  13. #213
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Lakeland FL
    Posts
    855

    Default Re: Small Cell Studies

    i would say almonds for the most part is just most other places that i put bees. Orange, blueberries, squash, pepper, even summer honey there are always other beekeepers around with in 2 or so Miles. That is for the most part how it is in commercial beekeeping. If there are no other beekeepers around there might be a reason why lol. Now Dee Lusby is i think for the most part isolated that might be why she can get away with it?
    Nick

  14. #214

    Default Re: Small Cell Studies

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    And that's what's called a straw man argument.
    I’m afraid that I don’t know what that means. I’m sure it isn’t good….but frankly, I wasn’t making an argument. I was addressing a curiosity. I’ll try to address that one more time…
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Do you mean "believe their results to be true?" I don't think anyone has "completely" adopted their reasonings. Many have adopted their management style. The "why" questions remain unanswered or scientifically proven.
    Let’s use your words Barry. I’m honestly not trying to be argumentative here.
    A sizeable number of beekeepers ‘believe that their result to be true’, sufficiently so, as to convert their entire beekeeping practice to small cell. Without a single controlled study, they accepted the Lusby’s on faith….I suppose. Dee said it was a product of cell size but the number of other possible variables is enormous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    The "why" questions remain unanswered or scientifically proven. .
    Agreed. So along come three independent studies that say that cell size, alone, doesn’t reduce varroa. That is all they claim. And yet considerable time, energy and ego are being spent to discredit these studies.

    So, I’m genuinely not arguing. I am…and this is the point I tried to make in an earlier post….only curious as to why the same people, who would believe Dee Lusby, without any scientific support, would now argue about these studies. They don’t question Dee or her work. They simply investigated one avenue of her theories.

    So, call me a straw man (whatever that means), suggest that I’m lying (however you drew that conclusion)….it doesn’t matter to me. Just, please explain why these studies are so threatening.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  15. #215
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,553

    Default Re: Small Cell Studies

    I don't know of anyone who believed the Lusby's without trying it. I certainly didn't. I thought, "if forcing them onto large cells is wrong, then forcing them onto small cells would be equally wrong" and I tried both small cell and natural comb. Once I was convinced the 4.9mm was not unnatural, and I found the PF120s, I did more small cell and continued to do more natural cell. As to working on Varroa, at the time I knew of absolutely no one who believed you could keep bees without Varroa treatments at the time and they were the only ones succeeding at all. So I had to try it. And it worked. For the first couple of years I counted mites to see if it was working. I've always been a skeptic and still am.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  16. #216

    Default Re: Small Cell Studies

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    I've always been a skeptic and still am.
    The simple question, then, after reading these three studies, do you believe that small cell, alone, reduces mites?
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  17. #217
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,113

    Default Re: Small Cell Studies

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    I don't know of anyone who believed the Lusby's without trying it.
    When I was doing my initial research in the fall of 02, I read all Dee's papers, talked to her on here, talked to you as well, and I was sufficiently convinced to try it out before I had any bees. Does that count?

    Ultimately though, as my beekeeping experience kicked off, I never saw anything I didn't expect except that my hives didn't die as quickly or as completely as I was told. I didn't lose all my hives, and after five years, I still had 30% of the originals, and that was on your average California commercial stock.

    I guess I'd say I'm an optimistic skeptic. I'll try anything. If it doesn't work, then I'll quit.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  18. #218
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,113

    Default Re: Small Cell Studies

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    I’m afraid that I don’t know what that means.
    A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position, twisting his words or by means of false assumptions.

    By example, you made a string of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    So, call me a straw man
    No one called you anything, if they had, their post would have been deleted.

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    suggest that I’m lying
    No one said you were lying.

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    Just, please explain why these studies are so threatening.
    No one said they were threatened.

    See how that works? You just made three false assumptions and presented them as if you read them off the page. Now, those attempting to answer your questions must address your statements by saying "I did not say that" wasting their time and energy fighting a 'straw man,' a false opponent created to deflect their energies.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  19. #219

    Default Re: Small Cell Studies

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    No one said you were lying. .
    No?
    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    This is an out and out falsehood. Absolute lie.
    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    See how that works? You just made three false assumptions and presented them as if you read them off the page. Now, those attempting to answer your questions must address your statements by saying "I did not say that" wasting their time and energy fighting a 'straw man,' a false opponent created to deflect their energies.
    You like playing semantic games, I guess. I don’t. Ok…you didn’t call me a straw man…in the literal sense….
    You win. I won’t be returning to this forum.
    You can have your small cell 'yes men'.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  20. #220
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,113

    Default Re: Small Cell Studies

    I did say that "Yet Michael can make such an absolute statement in a public forum and his words are taken by many as unquestioned fact. No page after page of nitpicking and sniping." was an out and out falsehood and an absolute lie.

    My statement that "no one said you were lying" was false. I sincerely apologize and ask your forgiveness.



    Semantics: "The individual meanings of words, as opposed to the overall meaning of a passage." I'm arguing just the opposite actually.
    Last edited by Solomon Parker; 12-01-2011 at 09:46 AM.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

Page 11 of 16 FirstFirst ... 910111213 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Ads