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Winter hive study and record keeping

23K views 75 replies 17 participants last post by  trishbookworm 
#1 · (Edited)
I just winterized my hive last week and wanted to share what I have done and the records that I have kept so far, my interest was to see what the temperature readings were outside and inside the hive and how these effect condensation. I also wanted to see at what temperature the bees kept the inside of the hive and how that temperature is affected by what I do in winterizing it so as to give them the best of care throughout the winter. If the bees are too cold then they cannot move to new stores and they will starve, too warm would not be good either.

So to begin, the bees are clustered in the lower box of my two box deep hive and both boxes have stores with the top box being completely filled. I placed a queen excluder on the top box, then I placed a 2" high shim on top of the excluder with window screening stapled to the bottom, the shim has a 1/2" hole drilled through the front into the cedar chips that I placed inside. I then wrapped the hive in a very thin insulation wrap of fiber and plastic film less than 1/8" thick, then wrapped it with 15# felt paper. the insulation is thin enough to let the solar gain from the felt into the hive and help keep the hive insulated as well. then I placed a 1/2" thin plastic tube in through the vent hole to keep it open. On top of the shim I placed a plexiglass inner cover to see if any condensation accumulates and then placed a small piece of cardboard over the oval hole and a 1" dial thermometer with a 5" probe reaching down through the card board, cedar chips, and screening, it reaches 3" down in between the top two center frames to read internal temperatures. On top of all of this is 1/2" of sheeting foam for top insulation then the outer cover.

If anyone finds this helpful and wants to add to it then please do and we will all learn from the additional data. The pictures and data so far is as follows, and thanks.....Bill

The winterized hive


Close up of vent hole tube


Close up of thermometer and plexiglass inner cover


10/23/11 9:00am
34 deg outside temp
64 deg inside hive temp
sunshine on hive
condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity

10/23/11 12:00 noon
54 deg outside temp
69 deg inside hive temp
sunshine on hive
condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
entrance activity

10/23/11 4:00 pm
58 deg outside temp
70 deg inside hive temp
sunshine on hive
no condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
entrance activity

10/27/11 6:00 pm
45 deg outside temp
64 deg inside hive temp
no sunshine on hive
condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity

10/28/11 8:00 am
31 deg outside temp
60 deg inside hive temp
no sunshine on hive
condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity

10/28/11 12:00 noon
40 deg outside temp
60 deg inside hive temp
no sunshine on hive
condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity
 
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#30 ·
I understand, although the La Crosse stuff is really quite well done and surprisingly easy- but without an always-on internet connection within 100-200 feet, quite useless. Getting pretty plots from Microsoft Excel spreadsheets is the hardest part. Your setup with the probe sticking down into it is just as effective for what you're measuring-- and no batteries to go dead in February! And I've struggled with where to put the sensors inside the hives.

The one interesting advantage to the electronic probes, including ones that don't need an internet connection but just transmit to a display that could be sitting right outside the hive, are that some of them make relative humidity measurements. Condensation on that inner cover will happen when the temperature of the cover is at or below the dew point of the air just next to it, and that dew point depends on the air temperature and the relative humidity-- so an electronic probe under the cover can tell you both those, and a dew point calculator or table will give you that-- for example, http://www.decatur.de/javascript/dew/index.html. A cluster giving off 50F at 50% relative humidity has a dew point of 32F-- an inner cover colder than that will have condensation from a rising column of warm moist air from the cluster. Without insulation above it, that's pretty easy in my climate in MA, cold and relatively humid in winter. But again, your plexiglass will do the testing job cheaper, easier and more reliably-- you just need to get out there to take a peek when things are at their coldest, and I get to stay inside. I'm looking forward to following the results.

You may find this interesting:
http://beenatural.wordpress.com/observations/condensation/
Greg
 
#31 ·
I have come to the sad conclusion that my hive study for this year will have to be abandoned, I have discovered that my data entries were wrong concerning condensation in the hive, I lifted up the tar paper on top of the hive today and found condensation in the rear part of the hive formed under the plexi inner cover, although the cedar chips and frames were dry. Previously I only looked through the center hole and missed seeing what had been forming under the felt paper. I did discover that the front half of the hive where the vent hole is was dry as a bone, and the cedar chips under the plexi was dry even where the condensation had formed in the rear. So the hive did stay dry up to this point and it was only the plexi that was wet. I have decided to end the study for this year and give some further thought to my winterizing plans and see if I can figure what needs changed to reduce condensation and heat loss at the same time....Bill
 
#35 ·
I have come to the sad conclusion that my hive study for this year will have to be abandoned, I have discovered that my data entries were wrong concerning condensation in the hive,...Bill
Bill,

Please don't be so hard on yourself. YOU WERE NOT WRONG! Your bees are dry and you have good temperature data. You're adding more pieces to this complex balancing of moisture and condensation puzzle. I applaud you for taking this "bull by the horns" and doing what more of us should be doing..getting hard data to support the anecdotal information on this forum.

Also, you've inspired some of the rest of us to take on similar projects. I'm one of those you've inspired. I got one of those wireless temp/humidity indoor/outdoor thermometers, a MEADE TM005X-M (How can you go wrong with a name like that! I just got it a few days ago, so I don't have much data, but it's coming along. Now if someone can help me figure out how to post an Excel wooksheet, I'd add that info to this puzzle.

Don't abandon the study, just tweak it or use the data to guide you to your next improvement.

We need more folks like you to inspire us!

Thanks, Steve Burton
 
#32 ·
Bill,

What you did provide was very interesting. I was fascinated to see the temperature differences between inside and out. Some of our bee club members were following along as well and they thought it was great. It would be easy to miss a little condensation so don't feel bad. Great project and thanks for sharing.
 
#33 ·
Hi Bill,

I think those two things, reduce condensation and heat loss. Venting moist air requires venting heat as well. So I guess an incredible amount of insulation might be the only thing I can imagine that would do it.

That said, I'm not sure it's possible to ever completely prevent condensation up at that layer that's immediately under the outer cover, even w/insulation there, and I think your design is sound. You've got a bit of condensation but that's why you have the cedar chips there. Should any of that condensation drip back down it would drip on the chips, not back down on the bees.
 
#34 ·
Thank you Charlie B for your kindness, I am happy that you and others in your club enjoyed this study. And Libhart I think your analysis makes a lot of sense, I may actually have the correct balance of condensation and heat loss. I suppose that I was looking at it from the perspective of trying to get rid of all condensation when that would be impossible without total heat loss. In light of your analysis I guess I did find what I was looking for, it just came a little differently than I expected. It would be interesting to add 1/2" foam insulation around the hive and see how that would affect the internal temperature; would the balance of heat loss and condensation remain the same? Thanks again everyone for your kindness....I have been enlightened....Bill
 
#37 ·
Steve, I suppose my thinking was that when I found the condensation under the plexi glass the whole study was messed up because the previous data about condensation in the hive was in error, it kind of knocked the wind out of me. You and the others who respond to this thread have encouraged me to continue, but in continuing I will look at the study not as fixed and inflexible but as a ever changing and evolving to correct any miscalculations as winter progresses in order to keep the bees in good health and find the proper balance for the bees to survive, and I will post any changes that I make. I have accepted the fact now that condensation does exist inside the hive and finding the correct balance of minimal condensation and minimal heat loss is the important thing to keep the bees dry and warm enough to move to new stores thus avoiding starvation. You and the others are an inspiration to me as well so I will continue...Thanks....Bill
 
#38 ·
Barry, thanks I'll see about getting the info posted.

WWW, great to hear! Keep at it. We need every bit of unbiased data we can get. Let the data lead you in the direction it takes you. I can't speak for everyone else, but I hazard a guess we've all learned something that didn't quite go the way we thought it would go. Keep trying...your bees are counting on you!
 
#39 ·
We're all counting on you! I don't think you realize the following you have. Do you know how much fun it was to get another update and check the temps?. C'mon, it's making my boring winter bearable!! :applause:
 
#41 ·
I'm so glad you're going to continue!!! Thank you. Your study is not flawed, we just have to understand more specifically where you were taking your observations from. Please keep posting the same so we can see if it changes as the season progresses. Good science is reporting to the best of our limited abilities to observe or measure what is going on. Being able to better define an observation point just makes your study more valuable and rigorous. Also being able to define uncertainties and areas of concern is a hallmark of good science.

Thank you for all your hard work and the reporting.
:applause:
 
#42 · (Edited by Moderator)
clgs, thanks for the uplifting words of advice, my study will continue with new vigor and additional data, I have placed a second thermometer into the lower box to read cluster heat with some amazing results. The new data should be available by tonight after final readings, and I will attempt to give weekly updates weekly on Sunday night from this point on as long as there are no unavoidable circumstances......Bill
 
#43 · (Edited by Moderator)
This past weekend I have placed a thermometer in the bottom box with very interesting results, I am pretty sure that I am picking up cluster temperature, or at least partial cluster temperature. With the outside temperatures at 17 deg. it was the coldest night so far this winter.

12/11/11 9:30 am
17 deg outside temp
49 deg upper box temp
70 deg lower box temp
no sunshine on hive
condensation frost in vent
no condensation under plexi
no entrance activity

12/11/11 12:00 noon
34 deg outside temp
47 deg upper box temp
64 deg lower box temp
sunshine on hive
no condensation in vent
no condensation under plexi
no entrance activity

12/11/11 4:30 pm
34 deg outside temp
55 deg upper box temp
59 deg lower box temp
sunshine on hive
no condensation in vent
no condensation under plexi
no entrance activity
 
#45 · (Edited)
Charlie, yes the findings were interesting on that early morning, and as the day progressed and the higher heat was no longer needed the cluster cooled off a bit. Perhaps the sunshine warming the hive allowed them to dial down their heating work and so the condensation in the vent disappeared as well.
 
#46 ·
www, a lot of science is trying to figure out what the correct experiment should be by fiddling around with stuff that doesn't work out as expected. The more that didn't work out as planned, the more you've learned that you maybe didn't even know you didn't know.

I understand the first thermometer is a meat-thermometer-style probe sticking down inches below the center of the wood chip quilt. How did you get a thermometer into the lower box, and where is the probe measuring?

The bees would produce more respiration moisture in a cold night, but if your tube is in the sunlight, it may also be drying out in the sun, and not necessarily be a really direct measure of what's happening inside. It's telling you a lot, but in a complex way, depending on the outside temperature, inside temperature and humidity, and sunlight on the tube. An analogy would be my old single-pane windows that condense and frost up overnight. You could look at the house from outside at daybreak and figure out where we slept by which windows had the most frost inside. But they dry out during the day mostly because the sun hits them, not because of what we do inside.

I get lots of variation in my in-hive probe temperatures, and suspect it's how the probe is positioned with respect to the cluster. In very cold temps the cluster will tighten up, and the cluster will presumably move around the hive a bit day-to-day. So I may see 65F one time, and 80F another even with similar outside overnight temperature, depending on whether the cluster happens to be surrounding the probe, or just nearby. It'll be interesting to see if the patterns repeat predictably over long times; that'll help you figure out the reasons.

An interesting thing to do would be a probe in an area they'd rarely cluster in, like a lower corner. That would give you some additional information about how the entire hive was warming up in the sunlight, outside the cluster itself. I've only managed to do that in a top bar hive, which has some different heat characteristics, but it's usually only about 5 degrees F above outside.

This is really interesting, keep it going!
Greg
 
#47 ·
Greg, I placed the second thermometer into a small divit between the two box's, directly in the center and front of the hive. This places it at the top of the lower box, but I do not know if it is entering the cluster or the wax comb or just open space for that matter but it is evident that the cluster is at this location. I like your idea of placing more probes at different areas in the hive, I will look to see if I can accomplish that this coming weekend, right know I have the two thermometers at the top of both box's. Repeatability of the data is of interest to me as well so I will keep the data coming and update on Sunday evenings barring any unforseen interuptions.

You might just be correct with the moisture analisis of the vent tube, the sun was on the hive during the last two readings and my hive faces southeast into the sun. This is something that I will look at more closely in the future.

Thanks for all of your input, it helps me to sort out all the variables in this study, and please keep us all updated as to your own progress in your hive temperature study, I do not have a top bar hive so that input would be valuable as well.....Bill
 
#48 · (Edited)
New data update coming in early, the 5:00 pm data block is reconfigured to accommodate another thermometer and all thermometer locations, so there are now four temperature readings from this point on to show more detail into what is happening inside the hive.These readings suggest to me that the bees are heating the cluster, the heat is radiating from the cluster and is rising inside the hive box's resulting in the hive box's being heated by the cluster, ultimately resulting in heat loss through the walls and top, and at a faster pace through the vent taking moisture with it......Bill

12/16/11 10:00 am
34 deg. outside temp
57 deg. upper box temp
61 deg. lower box temp
no sunshine on hive
condensation in vent
condensation under rear 1/4 of plexi
no entrance activity

12/16/11 12:00 noon
34 deg. outside temp
56 deg. upper box temp
71 deg. lower box temp
no sunshine on hive
condensation in vent
condensation under rear 1/4 of plexi
no entrance activity

12/16/11 5:00 pm
36 deg. outside temp
55 deg. top center of upper box temp
63 deg. top front of lower box temp
44 deg. top rear of lower box temp
condensation in vent
no condensation under plexi
no sunshine on hive
no entrance activity
 
#49 ·
Bill, it's interesting that the plexiglass condensation was gone by 5 pm, without direct sun heating the hive top and the outside temperature apparently staying quite constant (assuming nothing significant happened between 12 and 5). That seems like a lot of moisture would need to come out of that little tube by convection. My intuition fails again! If you see this pattern repeatedly, an interesting test would be to block up the vent one day to see if that changed things noticeably, and prevented the plexiglass from drying out. The tricky part is that it might also be affected by sunlight or warmer daytime temperatures-- it's hard to change just one variable at a time in the experiment to be certain what's controlling the result. It'll also be interesting to see if you can estimate where the bees are from the multiple thermometers as the winter progresses.
Greg
 
#50 ·
Greg, I have been able to see as you have that doing just one thing to the hive affects several other things creating a situation where everything that one does to a hive needs to be in balance with nature. We have created an artificial environment when we placed them into the box and as I have discovered, establishing that natural balance in the box can be tricky but it is possible. You and others who have posted to this thread have helped me to see that just because a little condensation appears under the plexiglass does not mean that things are not right, we can live with a little bit of condensation at times to prevent the loss of to much heat through a larger vent hole which would leave the bees without the heat needed to move to new honey stores during long periods of extreme cold. So far it appears that I have found a natural balance in the hive which really thrills me to no end. I am interested in your idea of closing the vent hole at some point to see what happens, that would be a very interesting experiment.

You were speaking of cluster location, and from the temperature readings I am able to say that the cluster is located at the front of the hive in the lowed box, however I am unable to tell where they are to the very inch, although they are in this location. If they were above the lower front thermometer I do not think that the readings would be as high as they are because the heat is rising in the hive due to convection. I also know that they are not up into the upped box, or at least not very far up into it because I placed a plastic ring into the cedar chip shim the other day, right around the upper central thermometer which now gives me the ability to see into the top hive box and see if the bees are moving up. Thanks for all your input Greg, its very much appreciated......Bill
 
#51 ·
Weekend update with data remaining relatively constant. However condensation did form under the plexi-glass when sunshine was on the hive for about four hours......Bill

12/17/11 12:15 pm
32 deg outside temp
52 deg top center of upper box temp
68 deg top front of lower box temp
39 deg top rear of lower box temp
condensation in vent
no condensation under plexi-glass
no sunshine on hive
no entrance activity

12/17/11 4:00 pm
33 deg outside temp
51 deg top center of upper box temp
70 deg top front of lower box temp
39 deg top rear of lower box temp
condensation in vent
no condensation under plexi-glass
no sunshine on hive
no entrance activity

12/18/11 9:00 am
32 deg outside temp
48 deg top center of upper box temp
68 deg top front of lower box temp
37 deg top rear of lower box temp
condensation in vent
no condensation under plexi-glass
no sunshine on hive
no entrance activity

12/18/11 3:00 pm
45 deg outside temp
53 deg top center of upper box temp
68 deg top front of lower box temp
42 deg top rear of lower box temp
condensation in vent
condensation in rear 1/4 under plexi-glass
sunshine on hive
no entrance activity
 
#53 ·
Charlie, the condensation under the plexi-glass amounts to only a slight dampness on the glass with no dripping, thanks.......Bill
 
#54 · (Edited)
Christmas day update, I added yet another thermometer, this one measures the felt paper wrap on the hive with some interesting results, the felt wrap reached 117 degrees at noon with the sun at its highest point. I used a larger dial thermometer that would cover a larger area on the felt and read the temperature from the felt surface.

larger Thermometer for felt temperature hanging under vent hole


12/24/11 12:00 noon
37 deg outside temp
54 deg top center of upper box temp
62 deg top front of lower box temp
43 deg top rear of lower box temp
117 deg front of hive felt wrap temp
condensation in vent
condensation under rear 1/4 of plexi
sunshine on hive
no entrance activity

12/24/11 12:30 pm
38 deg outside temp
55 deg top center of upper box temp
66 deg top front of lower box temp
44 deg top rear of lower box temp
110 deg front of hive felt wrap temp
condensation in vent
condensation under rear 1/4 of plexi
sunshine on hive
one bee milling around entrance

12/25/11 8:00 am
31 deg outside temp
50 deg top center of upper box temp
64 deg top front of lower box temp
37 deg top rear of lower box temp
31 deg front of hive felt wrap temp
condensation in vent
condensation under rear 1/4 of plexi
no sunshine on hive
no entrance activity

12/25/11 10:00 am
34 deg outside temp
50 deg top center of upper box temp
70 deg top front of lower box temp
37 deg top rear of lower box temp
43 deg front of hive felt wrap temp -- (This temp raised with the cluster temp in the lower box while no sunshine was on the hive)
condensation in vent
condensation under rear 1/4 of plexi
no sunshine on hive
no entrance activity
 
#55 ·
I got a high reading today of 140 deg on the felt paper at 12:00 noon, this is the time that the sun is delivering its highest thermal energy. there were no clouds in the sky so the hive received the suns full intensity, the previous report of 12/24/11 was 117 deg at noon but the sky was partly cloudy which reduced the thermal energy. I have included a picture of the thermometer taken at about 12:20 pm today as the readings on the thermometer started to drop away from 140 deg. The amount of heat collected in the felt is amazing.

12/26/11 12:00 noon
41 deg outside temp
52 deg top center of upper box temp
63 deg top front of lower box temp
43 deg top rear of lower bow temp
140 deg front of hive felt wrap temp
no condensation in vent
light condensation under entire plexi
sunshine on hive
no entrance activity

Temperature starting to drop from previous 140 deg
 
#56 ·
Hey everybody, I am adding only one data block tonight as I am looking for the weather to get colder and cold weather study is the reason this thread was started. We have been experiencing such warm weather so far that it has been hard to get good cold weather data, but I look for that to change real soon. As far as I can see the bees are still in the lower box.

12/31/11 9:30 am
44 deg outside temp
58 deg top center of upper box temp
61 deg top front of lower box temp
46 deg top rear of lower box temp
44 deg front of hive felt wrap temp
slight condensation in vent
no condensation under plexi glass
no sunshine on hive
no entrance activity
 
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