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Winter hive study and record keeping

23K views 75 replies 17 participants last post by  trishbookworm 
#1 · (Edited)
I just winterized my hive last week and wanted to share what I have done and the records that I have kept so far, my interest was to see what the temperature readings were outside and inside the hive and how these effect condensation. I also wanted to see at what temperature the bees kept the inside of the hive and how that temperature is affected by what I do in winterizing it so as to give them the best of care throughout the winter. If the bees are too cold then they cannot move to new stores and they will starve, too warm would not be good either.

So to begin, the bees are clustered in the lower box of my two box deep hive and both boxes have stores with the top box being completely filled. I placed a queen excluder on the top box, then I placed a 2" high shim on top of the excluder with window screening stapled to the bottom, the shim has a 1/2" hole drilled through the front into the cedar chips that I placed inside. I then wrapped the hive in a very thin insulation wrap of fiber and plastic film less than 1/8" thick, then wrapped it with 15# felt paper. the insulation is thin enough to let the solar gain from the felt into the hive and help keep the hive insulated as well. then I placed a 1/2" thin plastic tube in through the vent hole to keep it open. On top of the shim I placed a plexiglass inner cover to see if any condensation accumulates and then placed a small piece of cardboard over the oval hole and a 1" dial thermometer with a 5" probe reaching down through the card board, cedar chips, and screening, it reaches 3" down in between the top two center frames to read internal temperatures. On top of all of this is 1/2" of sheeting foam for top insulation then the outer cover.

If anyone finds this helpful and wants to add to it then please do and we will all learn from the additional data. The pictures and data so far is as follows, and thanks.....Bill

The winterized hive


Close up of vent hole tube


Close up of thermometer and plexiglass inner cover


10/23/11 9:00am
34 deg outside temp
64 deg inside hive temp
sunshine on hive
condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity

10/23/11 12:00 noon
54 deg outside temp
69 deg inside hive temp
sunshine on hive
condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
entrance activity

10/23/11 4:00 pm
58 deg outside temp
70 deg inside hive temp
sunshine on hive
no condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
entrance activity

10/27/11 6:00 pm
45 deg outside temp
64 deg inside hive temp
no sunshine on hive
condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity

10/28/11 8:00 am
31 deg outside temp
60 deg inside hive temp
no sunshine on hive
condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity

10/28/11 12:00 noon
40 deg outside temp
60 deg inside hive temp
no sunshine on hive
condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity
 
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#2 ·
Bill,

Nice job. It's fascinating to know what's going on inside. On the days there was condensation, did you actually see it dripping out of the tube and if so, how much was it dripping? I look forward to your continuing to update us.

Charlie
 
#3 · (Edited)
Charlie, I did not observe the condensation dripping although it might have when I was not present at the hive, but I did see it laying in the tube. If I had not placed the tube in the hole the condensation would have been absorbed by the surrounding wood and less detectable....Bill
 
#4 · (Edited)
Update: I have noticed from this data that when the temperatures approach a 25 deg differential between the inside of the hive and the outside, then the occurrence of condensation forming in the vent tube seams to increase, this could indicate that if the temperature is at a 25 deg differential or more from over insulating of under ventilating, then this can cause an increase of moisture in the air inside the hive. But the situation can be aggravated if the top insulation under the outer cover is not sufficient to prevent condensation from forming above the cluster when the warm moist air inside and cold outside meet. What we do to prepare our bees for winter may not always be perfect but I can see from this study that we must strive to find the correct balance between insulation and ventilation for the climate where we live, and the 25 deg or less in differential may be a good indicator to help find this balance ....Bill

New data:

10/28/11 7:30 pm
40 deg outside temp
60 deg inside hive temp
dark and raining
no condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity

10/29/11 12:00 noon
44 deg outside temp
54 deg inside hive temp
cloudy and damp from rain
no condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
1 bee flying

10/29/11 5:30 pm
48 deg outside temp
58 deg inside hive temp
cloudy and damp from rain
no condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity

10/30/11 7:30 am
28 deg outside temp
53 deg inside hive temp
no sunshine on hive
no condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity
 
#6 ·
Thanks Charlie and clgs for the positive responses it is encouraging to see, I will keep the data coming as I am also curious as to what happens when the extended cold gets here and also the final spring outcome.
 
#7 ·
This is great WWW! I am glad to see pictures. I have about a week and I will be wrapping my hive. However, I think I am just going to wrap it with Tar Paper, no plastic. It is extremely dry here, although it get's cold. We had an 18 degree morning just a week ago, 65 degree days. I was thinking the plastic might hold in more moisture???

The plastic tube is a great idea. I think I'll borrow that if you don't mind. Are you going to supplement at all this winter? Sugar? Pollen Cakes???

I have about the same exact setup. Really strong hive this year.
 
#8 ·
Welldrainedsoil, Thanks for the compliments and please don't look at the tube idea as borrowed, but as shared, I don't mind at all. I do not plan to supplement at all this year because the bees seem to have all they will need, although in late winter as spring approaches I plan to have a look inside just to be on the safe side, and in early spring I will for sure feed substitute pollen patties for an early spring buildup.

As far as the plastic holding in more moisture it is always best to use your own judgment because your bees are in a different climate than mine, I used the same insulation last year and encountered no problems at all, I think the top ventilation and top insulation is the key to controlling the moisture inside the hive, but ventilation must be balanced with the outside wrap and the heat that is lost through the vent. In other words the bigger the vent hole the more the heat loss from inside the hive, the key is to use only the amount of venting necessary so there is not an excess of heat loss. This is what my study is all about, to find that balance and end up with what is best for my bees in the climate in which I live. Too much heat loss and the bees get too cold and are unable to move to find necessary stores, too warm the bees are saturated with moisture and could die from the condensation when the temperatures drop. I read someplace but cannot remember where that 40 to 45 deg was an ideal temperature for the hive during a very cold winter so as the weather turns colder I will be looking for this. Please keep in touch and let me know how things turn out with your winterizing.....Bill
 
#10 ·
I am not making any recommendations about wrapping or insulating, besides where I live it is not important. But do remember that the warmer the air in the hive is, the more humidity it can hold.

I have a remote temperature and relative humidity sensor display unit sitting besides me as I type. It displays temps and humidity as broadcast from a sensor mounted on the ceiling of my front porch. Both units run off AA batteries and I think the pickup is thin enough to fit inside a frame of drawn comb. It also displays the high and low temperatures from the previous day. I know relative humidity is not the same as condensation but there are correlations, IOW you can't have one without the other. The unit is sensitive enough to tell you whether the weather (temperature) is trending up, down or steady.

The maker of this device is an outfit named ACU>RITE here is a link to my unit. I hope this gives you some ideas. http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...6AE4BC0A1A7B66B2CD655C40333BD7B7E0748&first=0

BTW, my unit ALWAYS reads within a degree of the National Weather Service, or local TV weather (or is it whether) report. The broadcast range is around 100 feet or maybe it is a 100 yards, I forget, looked at to many different units before I picked this one.
 
#11 ·
Buzz. my hive is not on a sbb, I have a solid board, but I intend on looking into buying a sbb for the spring as it would help to keep my mite count down. Thank you for the compliment; and do you have bees of your own?
 
#14 ·
Srcrapfe, thanks for the reply and the info, it makes a lot of sense to me what you said about the warmer the air in the hive is the more humidity that it can hold, I will keep that in mind. And thank you for the info on the humidity sensor, I did not know there was such a thing, I will take a look at your link..Thanks again..Bill
 
#16 ·
New data:
10/30/11 5:30 pm
52 deg outside temp
55 deg inside hive temp
no sunshine on hive
no condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity

10/31/11 12:30 pm
51 deg outside temp
51 deg inside hive temp
cloudy & light rain
no condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity

11/1/11 8:00 am
28 deg outside temp
50 deg inside hive temp
no sunshine
no condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity

11/1/11 12:00 noon
44 deg outside temp
51 deg inside hive temp
sunshine
no condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
entrance activity

11/2/11 11:30 am
39 deg outside temp
58 deg inside hive temp
sunshine
no condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
entrance activity starting

11/2/11 3:30 pm
63 deg outside temp
69 deg inside hive temp
sunshine
no condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
entrance activity
 
#18 ·
Libhart, I do not know what table format is and would not know how to enter it on any other website than here, but I appreciate your enthusiasm.
 
#19 ·
Update: condensation in vent tube when temperature differential is over 30 degrees in the early morning.

11/3/11 7:30 am
39 deg outside temp
61 deg inside hive temp
early morning
no condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity

11/4/11 7:00 pm
56 deg outside hive
68 deg inside hive temp
late evening
no condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity

11/5/11 8:00 am
30 deg outside hive temp
63 deg inside hive temp
no sunshine on hive
condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity

11/6/11 8:00 am
28 deg outside hive
60 deg inside hive temp
no sunshine on hive
condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity
 
#24 · (Edited)
I have been trying to wait for some colder weather to make another post hoping to get some cold weather data, however last weekend my bees were bringing in a light cream colored pollen. It was cold this morning so I will post what I have so far. Data as follows:

11/11/11 7:00 am
35 deg outside temp
59 deg inside hive temp
early morning no sun
condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity

11/11/11 12:30 pm
40 deg outside temp
59 deg inside hive temp
sunshine
no condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
limited entrance activity

11/18/11 7:00 am
27 deg outside temp
52 deg inside hive temp
early morning no sun
condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity
 
#27 ·
New Thanksgiving Data:

11/24/11 9:00 am
34 deg outside temp
53 deg inside hive temp
no sunshine
condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity

11/25/11 6:00 am
27 deg outside temp
47 deg inside hive temp
dark
condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity

11/25/11 12:00 noon
51 deg outside hive temp
48 deg inside hive temp
sunshine
no condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
entrance activity
 
#28 ·
www, I just noticed this thread or I would have responded earlier, not sure how I missed it. If you have your hives within a few hundred feet of your house with broadband (always connected) internet, you will love this:
http://www.lacrossetechnology.com/weatherdirect.php

La Crosse makes a lot of the electronic wx sensors you see everywhere now, but also has the Weather Direct product-- plug a base station into an internet router (e.g. WiFi box), and it will pick up sensors up to 100-200 feet away. Sensors record temperature, humidity at the sensor, and an additional temperature from a small probe on a 3' wire. The data is sent to the La Cross web site periodically- from seconds to 30 minutes-- and you can look at it there, or download the last (approx) 1000 readings into an .xls data file on your computer that can be looked at with Excel or equivalent (I use the free OpenOffice Calc program). And graphed, although that's turned out to be a bit more tedious than I hoped. All the web stuff is free, you just buy the equpiment, and it's not that expensive considering what it's doing.

Two quick comments-- your temps 10-20F above outside are directly above the bees, if I understand it-- I've seen this consistently in both Langstroth and a top bar hive, with various feeding chambers set up above the hives. The temp lower down on the sides is probably very close to outside temperature. Like your house, insulation in the attic is the main factor.

The condensation in the tube is probably not closely related to what's happening on the underside of the inner cover-- Last year I stapled a fold of plastic over my upper vent to block wind, and found it was great for piece of mind-- it would often frost up slightly from the warm moist air venting out, letting me know they were still alive (before my wireless thermometers). But that is because the plastic (and your tube) is basically at outside temperature, with a flow of warmer air going past it. The inner cover is insulated and kept warmer by the rising warmth from the cluster, reducing condensation on the surface. So I'd predict the plexiglass will show much less frequent condensation than the tube. Monitoring the plexiglass inner cover is a great idea. I predict that if you've got it well insulated you'll get no significant condensation or only at 4 am on frigid nights.

Greg
 
#29 ·
Greg, Thank you for all the input I really appreciate it, I like the sensors and record keeping device that you mentioned but there are a few things that get in the way of me taking advantage of it. I have no broadband or WiFi at this location and if I did it would still be difficult for me to accomplish because I really struggle with tech gadgets, other kind people have responded to this thread and offered similar suggestions and I have had to disappoint them with the explanation that I have never been exposed to that type of thing which makes me rather dense where computers and tech gadgets are concerned but your enthusiasm is appreciated.

Your two quick comments on temperature and condensation are right down the line my thoughts exactly, you have very good insight into what my study is about, and what is happening inside the hive, incredible. I will be adding to my data soon, I am waiting for the weather to turn colder so as to input some newer colder weather readings, thanks again for posting......Bill
 
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