Hygenic behavior in my bees - where did it come from?

**David LaFerney** · 10-23-2011, 09:40 AM

Yesterday I inspected a few hives that I had some concern with - the ones that look good and are not light I'm leaving be.

One of them that is a single box (8M) headed with a late summer queen had a very noticeable number of uncapped brood - that is they were among capped brood, but had been opened. The ones that I fished out were mostly live, and had varroa. A couple were dead and starting to break down. There were also empty cells or with eggs scattered about that might have been previously cleaned out. I've seen this before in other hives, but not to the same degree as this one. It might just be more infested than most.

So, this queen is descended from my original queen that came with my first package (spring 09) from Rossmans - no advertised hygenic trait. I have in my yard one Russell VSH queen - which has done very well, and grown to be an A+ hive since I got it in June.

So, my question - are my queens becoming more hygenic from open breeding, or are the drones from one VSH hive in the same yard having a noticeable effect. Are all bees selecting towards more hygenic behavior due to the presence of varroa?

Anyway, I'm keeping an eye on this one.

**Beezly** · 10-23-2011, 09:57 AM

Good question david...
I am seeing the same thing in one of my hives. I do know that it is infested pretty good right now and will be treating when the hopguard gets here tomorrow. I have been wondering though, if what i have been seeing is the same thing as you. In the mornings there are quite a few larvae and new bees (dead or dying) out on the landing board. Also quite a few varroa. Hive is weaker than it has been all year, but seems to belaying well still and no sick bees alive in the hive. there is dwv on the bees bees outside, but none seen inside the hive.
When breeders breed for hygienic traits, do they just let the colonies go and whoever survives then they breed from them? I would imagine this is the case, but just curious. I would also guess that many hives are lost in this process.
I would let mine bee, but don't want to lose the hive.
Looking forward to the replies.
thanks,
mike

**Adrian Quiney WI** · 10-23-2011, 11:56 AM

Mike, Marla Spivak and Gary Reuter select for Hygienic behavior by freeze killing a patch of capped brood and then 24 hrs later seeing how much of it has been cleaned out. The ones that have cleaned out all or almost all of the dead cells are selected.

**Beezly** · 10-23-2011, 12:46 PM

Thanks Adrian,
Looks like i have some reading to do!

**David LaFerney** · 10-23-2011, 01:59 PM

I haven't bred for hygienic behavior. Not directly anyway. The only things that I have selected for are gentleness, low swarming, and overall hive health. I don't keep mean bees or those that swarm for no particular reason, and any hives that don't "do good" are removed from the breeding pool. I've only really been at it for a year, but so far my bees are noticeably less aggressive toward me - hardly any "jumpers" or "yard guards" that I used to have. So it isn't beyond belief that I'm making progress on those other traits as well.

Maybe by selecting from hives that "do good" I'm indirectly selecting for hygienic behavior as well.

**Fusion_power** · 10-23-2011, 02:28 PM

Your statement revolves around "hygienic behavior" but you don't define what you mean by the term. There is a gene for hygienic behavior that causes bees to uncap damaged brood. There is another gene that affects removal of dead brood from open cells. If your bees uncap damaged brood but do not remove it, they are not hygienic. There are still more genes that control VSH (Varroa Specific Hygiene). If you are not actively selecting for hygienic behavior, then you are not making much more progress than trying to paddle a boat upstream using your hands as paddles.

If you want mite tolerant bees, stop treating for mites and let the susceptible bees die. Breed from the survivors. It will take about 5 generations to have mostly mite tolerant genetics. Before you do this, try purchasing some mite tolerant queens. It is well worth the cost. I haven't treated for mites in about 6 years now. My bees are thriving.

DarJones

**Beezly** · 10-23-2011, 02:41 PM

That is what I have been doing also david. I won't have mean bees either, Not for long anyhow.
Dar, So by seeing my bees bringing the larvae and varroa to the landing board, I am getting from what you are saying that they are showing Hygienic behaviour. If this is true, would it be advisable to not treat them and see what the outcome is? The hive is noticeably lighter and weaker at this point. I realize that this would be taking a chance on theri dying, however, if they are showing these traits now, they possibly could overcome this infestation?

**Peaches** · 10-23-2011, 03:26 PM

Something to think about. If a glass is full and you want to add something to it, you have to pour some of the filling out. Same thing with bees. if you breed for something, then something else is lost. Just giving you a heads up.

Now that being said, DarJones is correct. Some of the bees will uncap and some will remove, while some will actually take the trash from the landing board and fly it several feet to 20 or 30 feet away and drop it. At least that is the information I got.

**David LaFerney** · 10-23-2011, 04:39 PM

I don't really care if my bees have any specific hygienic behavior or not. What I do care about is if they are productive within the cultural practices that I use - and reasonably gentle.

I don't really consider what I'm doing to be "breeding" - I just get rid of the ones that I don't like. Kinda like if you hang onto a mean bull, don't be surprised if you end up with an unruly herd.

The question that I intended to ask is if this behavior is ubiquitous (but unexpressed) in all bees - perhaps becoming more so because of pressure from mites - or is it the result of the drones from a single VSH hive?

Treatment free - for or against? - would be another topic I think.

**Peaches** · 10-23-2011, 04:50 PM

David, I am not scientifically inclined so I cannot answer your question. If the bees don't make honey during the Spring flow, then I requeen. If the bees will not make wax, I requeen. If the bee brood is not to my expectation, requeen. If they are mean, requeen. That is about as far as my scientific brain will allow me to go.

If the only way to save my colony, then and only then will I use chemicals. I haven't used any chems. in over 6-7 years. That is my way. Some bks will say that is wrong, but remember there is no wrong way to keep bees. There is only your way that works for you.