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  1. #81
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    Default Re: American Foulbrood (afb)

    Quote Originally Posted by megank View Post
    However, you will likely obtain resistance to antibiotics by exposing microbes to repeated sub lethal dose simply cuz you're selecting FOR those that are.
    This one I can quote. :-) you are exactly right. Thank you. That is what I was saying about the effects of using a proper dosage for the proper period vs using a patty with a sublethal dose on hives that didn't have a problem to begin with... by doing so the effect will produce a harder target if an infection does occur down line...

  2. #82
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    Default Re: American Foulbrood (afb)

    The major problem I see with this thread is that infected combs have not been dealt with.

    I had AFB in my bees one time, the one time that a commercial beekeeper gave me some old equipment including frames to get started. Those frames were infected with afb scales. When I put some nice Italian bees on them, in 3 months, they had a major AFB infection. Needless to say, the commercial beekeeper was on the TM bandwagon with twice a year treatments. He never had AFB in his colonies.... or so he claimed.

    I found AFB in another beekeepers bees when I bought out his operation 20 years ago. The AFB was limited to a single yard. I refused to take any of the colonies from that location (only 6 colonies so no major loss) and when I went through the rest of the colonies and spare equipment I bought, I culled and burned all poor condition woodenware and I cut comb out of the good stuff and put it through a flame and heat cleansing. I did not get any disease in my bees from the purchase. The viable colonies were all carefully inspected, requeened, and started on a cycle of renewing brood combs.

    I found AFB in a friends bees when he purchased some colonies from a TM twice a year beekeeper. He did not treat and after 12 months, he had a colony totally rotten with AFB which he had not found because he did not know what it was.

    At this point, I have not seen AFB in 15 years. I keep between 5 and 20 colonies of bees. They are thoroughly inspected 2 or 3 times per year. they have not been treated with TM or with Tylosin or with any mite control or SHB control products in the last 6 years. So far, they are thriving. I am a firm believer in rotating out old combs. A comb that is 5 years old should be removed from the broodnest and replaced with a clean frame with foundation. Any time a comb is in poor condition, I replace it. As I say this, I have one colony in the process of replacing 3 combs. The goldenrod flow is almost over and aster is supporting the comb building.

    My take on this is that I will never buy bees on drawn comb except where I can personally inspect the colonies and know for sure they have not been treated with antibiotics within the last 6 months. I have absolutely no concern over transmitting AFB with purchased queens except in one very specific circumstance. That is when the queen cage candy has been made with honey. You would be surprised how many queen producers do this. Next time you order queens, ask!

    Does this mean I don't have AFB right now? Nope. As discussed numerous times in recent threads, the spores are everywhere. All it takes is letting your guard down for a few months and doing a few unnecessary "stressful" things to a colony and you can trigger an infection.

    Since mites decimated feral colonies, the infection rate for AFB has nosedived. Then again, the number of managed colonies nosedived at the same time so there may be more factors in play than just loss of feral colonies.

    Hygienic bees can clean up an AFB infection. This has been proven repeatedly. As also mentioned by RRussell, you can have bees that are too hygienic. The key is to have enough highly hygienic bees in a colony to keep diseases and pests under control without compromising the colony otherwise.

    DarJones
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  3. #83
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    Default Re: American Foulbrood (afb)

    'P. Larvae is in every hive... many seed are intentionally coated with it to benefit the plants growth...'

    I was unaware of this practice.

    As for what would constitute a vaccine...That's RNAi. It's a form of molecular immunity.

    How do you deal with problems associated w/ human antibiotic use? Probiotics. I use Jarrow's 'Jarro-Dophilus: EPS'.

    I don't know if there is something similar that you can do for Honeybees, Like 'honeybee probiotics'.

  4. #84
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    Default Re: American Foulbrood (afb)

    Quote Originally Posted by rrussell6870 View Post
    2. The P. Bacillus that is in every bee colony is not the spores, but rather the vegitative cells...
    If I haven't had any Foul in many years, burned anything I ever found, and don't use antibiotics, can this be true?

  5. #85
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    Default Re: American Foulbrood (afb)

    WLC, sounds like a new business for you to start up--Probeeiotics inc. IF we only knew what is considered good bacterium in a beehive. Treatment with antibiotics gives the operator a fall back position. Yes, we treat as a preventative as stated earlier. I nor you know what our fellow beekeepers in the area we keep bees in have in their colonies. Just good common sense-fifteen cents worth of preventative treatment or 150.00 worth of colony and equipment up in smoke. When some of you non treatment people finally burn a few colonies-not one, but many, then you will change your tune. TED
    ALABAMA BEE COMPANY-A member of the Sioux Honey association -*Sweetening a golden tommorrow*

  6. #86
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    Default Re: American Foulbrood (afb)

    i had saved the following information some time ago, the original document has gone missing where I read it. I found this part of the reaserch interesting.

    The proventriculus filters the nectar and removes debris such as pollen
    grains and the fungal spores that cause foul brood. A valve at the bottom
    of the proventriculus prevents the filtered nectar from entering the bee’s
    digestive system, but allows the debris removed from the nectar to pass
    into the bee’s alimentary canal and into the intestines where it is first
    stored then later voided from the rectum.

    Testing the speed and efficiency in which an introduced contaminate passes
    thru the digestive system might be the best method for determining which
    lines have a well developed proventriculus.

    THE R-VALUES OF HONEY: POLLEN Coefficients
    source.

    so it was my thinking that some number of spores(but if I remember correctly there was a corrections as the word spores was the wrong word to use but can't remember the correct word as I have it dated as june 2006. so the bees would naturally remove some number of the spores as part of normal digestion? anyone know how to turn off this auto save feature that started a while ago, causes me nothing but grief(off topic)
    mike syracuse ny
    I went to bed mean, and woke up meaner. Marshal Dillon

  7. #87
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    Default Re: American Foulbrood (afb)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    I am a firm believer in rotating out old combs. A comb that is 5 years old should be removed from the broodnest and replaced with a clean frame with foundation. Any time a comb is in poor condition, I replace it.

    Does this mean I don't have AFB right now? Nope. As discussed numerous times in recent threads, the spores are everywhere. All it takes is letting your guard down for a few months and doing a few unnecessary "stressful" things to a colony and you can trigger an infection.

    DarJones
    I do not remember if some of the teachers of this afb thread...rrussell or sqkcrk, too many to mention, but you know who you are, really talked on comb replacement as a form of disease control. I think, personally, it is one of the easiest things we can do to lower the risk of some of the potential diseases in our hives.
    Many times I have talked with beekeepers about comb replacement. The biggest draw back they see is cost of a frame...the purchase price, the putting together and the drawn wax. To them, that is money invested in the hive. But i look at the cost of what happens if that comb does not get replaced. Dark, thick walled, frames with dead spots...you know the spots... where the bees can not clean or the queen can not use, or the hive tool can not scrape off cause it is too dang hard... this can cost more money.
    My husband laughs at me now, a few years ago he would try and convince me "this frame is good"..."what is wrong with this frame?"...now he just goes with the flow and has a good laugh cause in the spring, and during extraction, I build quite the towers of pallets with frames to send to the renderer. The money I get from rendering pays for new frames to build. Not everyone has a renedering plant close, and that is sad, but even so, we need to take the time to remove comb from production.

    Constant comb replacement is one of the most simple tools at our disposal...we should use it more.

    Thoughts on the rambling of a young commercial beekeeper?...

    PS... thanks for this thread...learning alot

  8. #88
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    Default Re: American Foulbrood (afb)

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Why don't you look up how the antibiotics involved work? They basically keep something essential from being made.

    So, you might not even know that you need to treat.
    A. We seem to have a difference of opinion on what this Forum is for. I come here in search of answers. You seem to think I should go find the answers myself somewhere else. I can only imagine what it must be like for a Student of yours who doesn't understand something which you spoke of in Lecture. But thanks.

    B. "So you might not even know that you need to treat."? Huh? You seem to be of a mind that treatment, the use of antibiotics, is not a good thing. So why do you even bring up the idea of "not even know[ing] you need to treat"?

    Do you think AFB should be treated? When? Under what conditions?
    Mark Berninghausen To combat Ebola, please consider supporting http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org


  9. #89
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    Default Re: American Foulbrood (afb)

    Quote Originally Posted by rrussell6870 View Post
    As Michael Palmer mentioned earlier, honey bees cannot be resistant to something unless they are exposed to it...
    W/ the presence of one colony w/ AFB in it, is that what you would call exposure? Is that exposure to the rest of the colonies in the Apiary, enuf to test honeybee resistance?

    Having, years ago, Inspected Mike Palmer's colonies, and never finding any AFB, as far as I can recall, where is the exposure?

    There are many other beekeepers who I could mention who either have no detectable cases of AFB which an Apiary Inspector would find, or they are really good at getting those cases out of their Bee Yards. So where is their exposure?

    I also know of a sizeable operation which went unworked for a number of years due to an aged beekeeper's neglect. Senility gets the best of us. When a friend of mine took control/purchased the operation there were many cases of AFB. So, I would say his whole operation was well exposed to AFB in colonies and equipment transfer. Finding any today is not more the norm than it was before he acquired said operation.

    But, maybe I am not understanding exposure as Doc and Mike are refering to it. Are y'all refering to exposure to AFB in the Breeding process? The selection process?
    Mark Berninghausen To combat Ebola, please consider supporting http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org


  10. #90
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    Default Re: American Foulbrood (afb)

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    If I haven't had any Foul in many years, burned anything I ever found, and don't use antibiotics, can this be true?
    Sure can. I will see if I can find some info on the web about the test results that give notation to just how abundant the vegetative cell counts were found to be within feral colonies in isolated areas as well as those that were found in locations such as hollow trees, bird nests, and hornet nests... interesting read, just not sure if its on the web...

    The findings really were useful in determining that an actual infection is quite a rare p henomenon and requires a stressor in most cases to amplify the possibility of the cells ending up in the gut of a larvae at a high enough level and under the right conditions, then once endospores are produced, the likelihood of the spores finding their way into yet another larvae is multiplied but still requires a great deal of chance... with each larvae that becomes infected (thus produces endospores) the likelihood of the spores reaching another larvae is multiplied and the amount of "chance" that is required is lessened...

    The endospores are tenacious and can withstand many conditions that the vegetative cells cannot... thus once a strong infection has had a chance to produce spores that contaninate stores in a hive, equipment, honey house equipment, boxes, etc, the spores may be found in multiple hives but the cross contamination still requires the spores to find their way into the gut of a perfectly aged larvae at high numbers before an infection can occur... with spores being stronger, they do not require quite as perfect of an environment before they can become virulent, thus the presence of spores in a yard increases the risk of infection quite a bit more than the commonly found vegetative cells...

  11. #91
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    Default Re: American Foulbrood (afb)

    Quote Originally Posted by wildbranch2007 View Post
    so the bees would naturally remove some number of the spores as part of normal digestion?
    There are actually a few studies currently running about this... one in particular is quite interesting to me as it focuses on the rolls of a certain percentage of bees within each colony that tend to maintain a high body temperature... the findings of the research that you are speaking about showed that a method of naturally limitating both vegetative cells and endospores within the colony was to capture it in feces preventing any further spread... this may not happen as a response to any infection, but rather just a helpful mechanism... this research has led to more research into the possibilty of using manipulations to get the bees to consume stores within a mildly infected hive, then follow up with a dose of a substance that acts as a stool softener... to my knowledge, the results of this study are not published yet...

  12. #92
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    Default Re: American Foulbrood (afb)

    Honeyshack and fussion power, I think we should start a thread directly related to the pros and cons of comb culling and the exchange processes that different people use... one thing that does indeed show promise for some is that by removing excessively aged comb, they can be removing spores that were locked away in the cocoons... only to be released directly into a braid area with the accidental scrape or puncture of a hive tool... not such an issue it would seem for the hive, but by being directly within the brood comb, the area where the spores are released can then have an egg (or 20 for that matter) laid in it, then jelly added, and thus the spores are in the jelly being consumed by the larvae... increasing chances of infecting that cell...

    Of course, I love my really old combs... lol. I guess they are somewhat of a novelty to me... but I do indeed try to cycle out older combs by a gradual replacements system as well as by splits of course... as a major comb manipulator, I need access to the brood chamber and good strong combs that can handle a little snatching and shoving... so I prefer them to be aged at least a few years before they get to that "sweat spot" of being preferred by the queen and bee keeper alike...

  13. #93
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    Default Re: American Foulbrood (afb)

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    W/ the presence of one colony w/ AFB in it, is that what you would call exposure? Is that exposure to the rest of the colonies in the Apiary, enuf to test honeybee resistance?

    Having, years ago, Inspected Mike Palmer's colonies, and never finding any AFB, as far as I can recall, where is the exposure?

    There are many other beekeepers who I could mention who either have no detectable cases of AFB which an Apiary Inspector would find, or they are really good at getting those cases out of their Bee Yards. So where is their exposure?

    I also know of a sizeable operation which went unworked for a number of years due to an aged beekeeper's neglect. Senility gets the best of us. When a friend of mine took control/purchased the operation there were many cases of AFB. So, I would say his whole operation was well exposed to AFB in colonies and equipment transfer. Finding any today is not more the norm than it was before he acquired said operation.

    But, maybe I am not understanding exposure as Doc and Mike are refering to it. Are y'all refering to exposure to AFB in the Breeding process? The selection process?
    The exposure that I was referring to was to the naturally present P. Larvae bacteria within the hives and the occasional single cell infection if/when it occurs (with the understanding that the single cell infection does not spread into even a mild infection running the chance of the infection getting out of control... some single cell infections are never noticed (probably much more than we realise), and bees that are able to address the issue by sealing the infected larvae or remove it early enough are better suited for handling early stage infections before they get out of hand...

    Of course, any infections noted in an operation that is not based on the function of identifying traits and promoting the good ones while culling the bad ones should be addressed properly...

    The level of exposure should thus be rated by the level of infection and modes of control rather than the number of infected colonies... if a colony has an infection of any level and is not addressing the threat, then the exposure is not being effective as the response trait can not be used to gain ground by promoting it...

    So when a honey producer purchases an operation with afb infections and thus active spores mixed throughout multiple colonies, the producer can expect to have to aggressively address the issue and identify trouble colonies over time and remove them (burning)... the mere presence of the infection does no good without 1. The colonies being able to resolve the problem on their own. And 2. The operation being capable and actively working to identify the control traits and cull the non-controlling traits...

    I hope that makes sense...

  14. #94
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    Default Re: American Foulbrood (afb)

    Dr. Russell

    I have a couple questions. Several weeks ago I had an interesting debate regarding the accepted practice (in some states) of shaking afb infected colonies onto new foundation and new equipment allowing them to supposedly burn up the spores while drawing out new wax onto the foundation. My question is how effective is this practice? What is the likelihood and percentage of reoccurrence with these colonies? Has research and field studies been proven to show that this is a safe practice? You mentioned this in one of your earlier posts.
    "Tradition becomes our security, and when the mind is secure it is in decay".....Krishnamurti

  15. #95
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    Default Re: American Foulbrood (afb)

    as a major comb manipulator, I need access to the brood chamber and good strong combs that can handle a little snatching and shoving... so I prefer them to be aged at least a few years before they get to that "sweat spot" of being preferred by the queen and bee keeper alike
    This is one place we will have to agree to disagree. I see the benefits in colony health from having routinely renewed comb.

    On the other hand, I cut a bee tree quite a few years ago where the combs were so old that they were literally hard as rocks. I had to use a hatchet to chop the combs out of the tree. They did not crumple or tear, they broke like pieces of pottery. I could only guess at the age, but based on the buildup of cocoons, they were probably in the range of 50 years old.



    Re shaking infected colonies out and placing them on foundation, I always took the view that if you burn the colony, you eliminate the source of the problem. I would not use the shakeout method. Others may disagree.

    DarJones
    Last edited by Fusion_power; 10-14-2011 at 12:00 PM.
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  16. #96
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    Default Re: American Foulbrood (afb)

    Can we back up?
    Do you peel the garlic?
    How about pesto would that work(it has alot of garlic)?

    Unfortunately that "bit" of wisdom probably replaced something I really needed to know!

  17. #97
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    Default Re: American Foulbrood (afb)

    Quote Originally Posted by Riskybizz View Post
    Has research and field studies been proven to show that this is a safe practice?
    It appears, in Denmark the shaking method has been used for quite a while.
    Here is a 2003 published study:
    http://www.apimondia.com/apiacta/art...3/hansen_1.pdf

  18. #98
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    Default Re: American Foulbrood (afb)

    Quote Originally Posted by Riskybizz View Post
    Several weeks ago I had an interesting debate regarding the accepted practice (in some states) of shaking afb infected colonies onto new foundation and new equipment allowing them to supposedly burn up the spores while drawing out new wax onto the foundation. My question is how effective is this practice? What is the likelihood and percentage of reoccurrence with these colonies? Has research and field studies been proven to show that this is a safe practice?
    This method was allowed by many for a long time, although I am not sure who all allows it today... the risk level of reinfection is mostly dependant upon the degree of the infection within the original colony and the method used for transferring the bees...

    For example, if the colony has an infection level of six or less infected cells, and the method of transfer is to shake all of the bees from the colony on to the ground in the pre-daylight hour about 6 feet in front of the entrance of the new equipment which is placed in the same location as the removed hive was (with the understanding that any palletized bottom boards would not be allowed in this process), and the combs with infected cells were burned bees and all instead of shaken along with the others, the chance of reinfection was very low... like 1 in 50 or so...

    However, if the bees were shaken directly over the new equipment, the frames with infections were shaken as well, and the infection levels were more than six infected cells, the chances for reinfection were much, much higher...

    The process works by taking away all if the stores, brood, wax, and equipment that is harboring spores... the bees digest all of the feed that was already inside of them instead of feeding it to brood or storing it in cells and thus the spores inside of them safely remain... while the spores on the exterior of their bodies are the only ones left that could possibly reach the proper aged brood to start a new spore producing infection... as these bees are dying off and switching duties quickly, they are carrying away a large portion of the endospores with them... this the hive soon get a level of spores that is far fewer than the original hive had vegetative cells before the infection...

    It's all about percentages and possibilities, so the methods were based on limiting as many spores from the original hive from transferring to the new equipment as possible...

    I have seen it work when done properly, and I have seen it work when done improperly, but then again, I have seen it fail as well...

  19. #99
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    Default Re: American Foulbrood (afb)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mbeck View Post
    Can we back up?
    Do you peel the garlic?
    How about pesto would that work(it has alot of garlic)?

    Unfortunately that "bit" of wisdom probably replaced something I really needed to know!
    Try yogurt... if the treatment duration is for ten days, eat 3 containers of yogurt a day (1morning, 1 noon, and 1 night)... for the entire duration plus an additional 5 days afterwards...

    Acidophilus can be taken instead... this comes in a milk form as well as a pill form...

  20. #100
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    Default Re: American Foulbrood (afb)

    Thank you Dr. Russell:

    What about feeding sugar syrup during this process to this ‘shook colony” Will the spores be stored and viable in the syrup as they are in honey stores? 20 years ago our operation in Virgina had an outbreak after we purchased some nucs from Florida and brought them back. The inspectors at the time permitted us to shake the bees onto clean equipment and foundation. We found this to be successful less than 50% of the time. As a result we went back and burnt everything that was possibly infected.
    "Tradition becomes our security, and when the mind is secure it is in decay".....Krishnamurti

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