Robbing situation

[ineclipse]

Hello!
I have 4 TBHs in my yard which were all being robbed.
I tried all the tricks in the book before finally closing off the entry holes (1/8 screen) sticking water and thick fall syrup in the hives, and hoping for the best!

This was done Wednesday evening with three of the hives, and Thursday evening with the other.
It's now Friday afternoon and there are still a ton of robbers out there in the yard buzzing all around the hives, searching for ways in, and hopefully getting ready to move on!
They are definitely not my bees.

I've read this technique needs to be done for at least 72 hours (3 days) before opening them up again.
Problem is... I am leaving bright and early tomorrow morning (Sat), which will only be 2 days sealed for three of them, and 1 day for the other, and won't be back until Monday afternoon.
That means potentially 5 days closed, but from the scene out there right now I don't dare open them up by 7am tomorrow!

So... for anyone that has experience with this (I have consulted Michael Bush's website for a lot of this), can I just top up their water and feed in the morning, close 'em back up and hope they'll all still be bees by Monday?! (For sure, if I open them up in the morning, they will not still be bees by Monday - or at least not bees with anything in their hives.)

I was admittedly kind of freaked out by the level of robbing that was taking place, and am now equally as freaked by having them closed up. I guess I shouldn't be if it will solve things. However... all 4 hives have observation windows and it looks inside the hives today like it did outside them yesterday! Highest activity I've ever seen inside a beehive. I assume (seriously hoping!) that will mellow out soon.

Thanks,
Jason

[BooneCtyBeek]

Are you sure they are getting robbed? Someone else may correct my faulty understanding, but I thought robbing was something which happens like a plundering flash mob as opposed to over a period of days. Once a hive is targeted for robbing, the gang arrives, steals the honey and is gone. Thus, once observed, it is essentially too late. If by 'all the tricks' you mean you've closed down the entrance to a small opening (before the screen closing), one might think if the hive is too weak to defend itself it might be too weak to overwinter.

[Oldtimer]

Are your tbh's bottom screened, and protected from overheating by the sun?

If so, you can lock them in while you are away.

[ineclipse]

Hi, and thanks.

BooneCtyBeek:
For sure these were not the strongest hives I've seen, but a couple of them 'should' have been able to defend themselves... however, they did have plenty of curing honey on them from some feeding I'd done through our record rains here in August & September - and now that the weather has cleared, the area's bees are definitely hungry! And all four hives were suffering all the same symptoms - so I'm not convinced it was robbing between my own colonies.

When I said 'try all the tricks', these were things like reducing the entrance holes (from two or three 1" holes, down to one 5/8" hole), changing hole locations, vapor rub around the holes, etc., and this was over the course of the 48 hours prior to closing them up completely.

Also, I'm pretty sure it's robbing because after closing up the hives on Wednesday night, there were throngs of bees on Thursday buzzing the hives (doing the classic frenzied figure-8 patterns around the entrances) and flying just about everywhere else around my yard, house, etc. Today there are many fewer but still plentiful just around the hives themselves... probably additionally attracted to the feeders if they can detect them. But for sure the bees inside the hives are staying inside the hives, and the ones outside are not getting in at all anymore (so far as I can tell). So where else would these bees outside the hives be coming from than other hives in the area? I'm guessing they're the culprits.

Oldtimer: They are all bottom screened, and in a mix of shade and sun... highs here over the weekend will be upper 70s/low 80s. (Indian summer in the Northeast!)
I put screens over the entry holes, not corks, so hopefully they'll stay well ventilated. I could uncork another hole or two and put on screens.

If I do lock them up 'til Monday, what's going to be happen in the event they finish up the feed & water? I can probably get about 6 quarts of feed in each hive, max. Have no idea how much water is needed.

Thanks!!

[Michael Bush]

I'm not sure what is going on. Most robbers will give up after a few hours of not being able to get anything. If they run out of water and it's hot they will overheat.

If they run out of water and they are rearing brood, you could loose some brood (which they may or may not be doing this time of year). If they run out for too long, of course, they will die. They can go through a lot of water on any day and on a hot day they go through more.

[Daniel Y]

I liked a suggestion I saw on another thread. Don't know if it is possible. make another hive that actually traps the bees in it. put a feeder in it for the robbers to go after. once they enter they cannot excape. combine bees you capture to your hive via newspaper to strengthen it for winter.
sort of a trap out in reverse.

[Gypsi]

My robbers finally pulled out late yesterday afternoon. I moved my one and only hive to my daughter's on Tuesday October 4th after dark. The bees in North Texas are starving. Now there are none pollinating my neighbor's garden.

My solution was to move the bees, but that was based on local circumstances, drought, dearth, no flow. I have no idea how long yours could stay locked down, mine were in full sun and it was 90 here today. I'll check on them tomorrow.

Gypsi

[rrussell6870]

If they are in the sun, they will overheat before you return... reduce and reroute the entrances if you have no other choice. If its a screened bottom, the robbers will most likely keep at it, if its not a screened bottom and there is not enough forage to sustain the robber colonies and yours, the robbers will most likely keep at it... if you have fed hbh or similar products with attractants, the robbers will most likely keep at it...

If you have a hole type entrance, a simple wooden three hole queen cage placed vertically over the entrance with the side vented hole over the entrance and the bottom corked will confuse the robbers enough to send them elsewhere... good luck.

[ineclipse]

Hi Michael, thanks... I suppose that's true, but there's a real dearth right now around here, so is it possible they may be a bit more persistent than usual if they think they've found a large supply?
What's the significance of waiting the 72 hours before opening the hive up again... is it that if I open up before then, any robbers I trapped will head home again - and possibly start a fresh round of sending their sisters over for a snack?

Daniel, thanks, that's a great idea, and if I'd done that Wednesday or Thursday, I'd have trapped plenty! Wish I had just one more day to evaluate things before I was taking off.

Gypsi, thanks as well, and I'd certainly move them if I had that option, but I really don't. Glad your problem seems to have resolved.

Think what I'll do is open up only the strongest of the four hives before leaving. I'll pull the feeder, open one 5/8" hole, and leave another hole or two screened off for added ventilation. The other three will stay closed (so the strong colony can't start robbing those!), and leave a gallon of syrup and a gallon of water in each, and hope that will bee enough!

I'll be back by midday Monday, so hopefully they'll be good to go 'til then!
Nervous.

Thanks for all the input,
Jason

[ineclipse]

Hi Russel, thanks... I was thinking that exact thing about the queen cages! Wasn't going to do it in the end, but now that you've mentioned it, maybe I should give 'em a go.
Unfortunately, I have only 2 of those laying around.

The hives I'm going to leave sealed 'til Monday actually have plenty of empty space on either side of the follower... and with the screened bottom and extra vent holes open above, I'm hoping they won't overheat in the end. Supposed to be pretty low humidity Sat & Sun... do you think I'm taking too much of a risk?

Hmm...

[Michael Bush]

>What's the significance of waiting the 72 hours before opening the hive up again... is it that if I open up before then, any robbers I trapped will head home again - and possibly start a fresh round of sending their sisters over for a snack?

If 72 hours has a significance, yes, that's it. I'm not interested in that so much as stopping the robbing ASAP. Build robber screens, Put vicks on the entrances. Close them up altogether until they stop coming. Open the lids on the strong hives to make them stay home to guard theirs...

[rrussell6870]

Well, if you have space to move the followers out a bit, or if there is ample air flow and space for them to fan along the vents, then you may be fine... lightly mixed 1:1 syrup inside may also help, so long as the hives are bee-tight so no more robbers can make it in...

If you want to try the two queen cages that you have, it would be best to watch them for a day with the cages over the entrances, just to see how hard the robbers will work these two while there is feed in the others...(remove the screens from the cages and secure them tightly of course)... that trick works well for mating nucs, swarm boxes, and even five frame cardboard nucs, so it should prove helpful for your tb hives as well.

The main concern of overheating is that it will cause a huge brood kill... if there is not enough air flow, the queen will shut down and the brood will die, then the bees (most anyway) will quickly begin to clear out the brood... devouring it in most cases... this is a common issue amongst nucs when they are shut up in the southern sun for too long... with the tb hive, you have the advantage of adding space so they can fan and control their temps and air exchange better... hope this helps.

[ineclipse]

Okay! So here is a follow-up on what went down with my 'apparent' robbing situation...
I left on Saturday morning and decided to open up 2 of the sealed hives which seemed the stronger ones (so after 2 days of being closed up), and refilled the heavy syrup and water in the other two and left them closed. I returned on Monday afternoon to find the following...

The two open hives were very calm and with none of the hyper-activity I left them with. However, I decided to inspect one of them that looked (via the obs. window) a bit weaker than a week ago, and found the queen, along with some larvae and capped brood (no eggs), but only very little capped honey and just as little uncapped. So was it in fact being robbed prior to my evasive action last week, or possibly again over the weekend? Can't say! To the contrary, the population in the other open hive while also calm, was exploding and I could view no fewer than 16 active combs through the window. Decided to not to bother this hive... this has been my strongest hive throughout the season, although it could very well have been robbing the other! Again, can't say with any assurance.

For the two sealed hives... a totally different story! By the time I got back to them Monday afternoon, one of them was so warm I could feel the heat coming off it! I opened it up immediately and the sense of relief was overwhelming. They immediately swarmed up and started re-orientating and just seemed very happy to be free! The feeder was bone dry, yet the water was hardly touched. (Don't know what to make of that.) The population was still moderately strong, but the number of dead on the screen was high and there were in fact some pupae there, but I was thinking it could have been worse. So I inspected the hive on Wednesday and found the queen alive and appearing well, but absolutely no brood (capped or uncapped) was to be found. However, the two most notable things were that there were plenty of young bees among the survivors, and actually plenty of capped/cured honey stores, and plenty of nectar/syrup still to be worked. So is that an indicator that in fact there was not any robbing taking place here? That what I thought was robbing was just new-bee behavior, and that I possibly stressed out the colony unnecessarily and screwed it out of the last of its fall brood?

And finally there was the second sealed hive. That one was not warm at all, and sure enough I quickly discovered that the girls had managed to de-propolize and move a shim I had placed earlier in the season to seal a gap, and were moving freely through that space. Granted the space was no bigger than a single bee could use at a time - so quite easily defended, but it was apparently enough to keep the hive from stressing too badly. Interestingly, the feeder in this hive had hardly been touched. So I also inspected this one on Wednesday and again found capped and uncapped stores, and the queen, but similarly to the first sealed hive, no brood whatsoever.

So out of 4 hives, I now apparently have 3 with decent stores that I suspect were not being robbed, and another with extremely low stores, and 2 hives with no brood left at all, while 2 hives are still apparently with brood. One interesting fact here, is that among these 4 hives, I have 4 different queens! This is due to various reasons I won't get into here, but 1 is an Italian, 1 Carniolan, 1 Russian and 1 hybrid local survivor stock. I would think initially to work next season towards all Russians or locals, and be done with the Italians - primarily because I am feeling that Italians least belong to the climate here in Upstate NY and I'm not seeking a massive honey harvest - but in fact, the remaining Italian hive is the strongest of the 4. It also happens to be the one that received the least daily sunlight throughout the season.

So... to my untrained eye, I am just feeling that there is absolutely nothing to concretely concluded out of all of this, and that my bees are pretty much all over the road!
Maybe that's how it should bee. Or maybe it's just me that's all over the road. I guess that's more likely.

Only left wondering whether I should try and feed that one weak hive? (Not sure I like the idea of introducing a feeder to the yard again right now, but that hive is without a doubt, very low.) Any thoughts on that? (Or on any of this??)

Thanks to all who replied,
Jason

[rrussell6870]

The main concern of overheating is that it will cause a huge brood kill... if there is not enough air flow, the queen will shut down and the brood will die, then the bees (most anyway) will quickly begin to clear out the brood... devouring it in most cases... this is a common issue amongst nucs when they are shut up in the southern sun for too long... with the tb hive, you have the advantage of adding space so they can fan and control their temps and air exchange better... hope this helps.

Sounds like exactly what happened... since your return, have you noticed any more robbing type activity?

[ineclipse]

Yes, I definitely agree that's what happened, and I had your comment very much in mind when I went in and saw that.
Only that there were certainly a high number of very young bees in these hives as well, so I have only to hope that most hatched prior to me shutting the hives... and in which case would suggest I was likely witnessing more orientating activity than robbing. However, orientating alone doesn't account for all the symptoms I was seeing... such as the extreme hyper-activity inside the hives, the fighting at the entrances, the huge numbers of bees that came to my yard the first day after I closed them up and then ceased coming, etc.

As for continued robbing... well I hadn't noticed much of anything like it up through Thursday. But I went out late yesterday afternoon and saw this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xxf6IbGh5g8
This was recorded at about 3:30pm, and by 5:15 some big rain was approaching and all the activity you see on the vid had stopped.
And now this morning at about 9:15am, all is calm, but it's still 52 degrees out so I don't think it means anything.

(Note that while what we see in the video on the first hive certainly looks like robbing to me, this is exactly what it looked like last week as well, and they don't seem to have consumed very much then. This first hive is the one that had been sealed yet made the small opening for itself while I was away and was pretty calm on my return Monday. As of inspection on Tuesday it had 8-9 combs each about 1/3-1/2 filled with capped honey, yet had barely touched the syrup I left for it over the weekend.
I don't know what to make of it and would love to have your reaction.)

Also, the last hive in the video is the one that has almost no stores, and was opened Sat. am before I left (after only 2 days closed up), and still has some brood, capped and uncapped. I can't tell if that is potential robbing activity we're seeing in the video on this one, but if not... do you think it's safe to feed this hive again at this point? And if so, would you use syrup or fondant? (It's weak in stores for sure, but not so much in numbers.)

What to do... what to do...
Thanks!
J

[Oldtimer]

The first hive in the video does not look like robbing to me, although the bees are upset about something or have somehow been disrupted, the bees fanning scent are an indicator of that.

I'm wondering if they are too hot, and the entrance is too small.

One of the last hives you showed did have what seemed like robbers checking it out, as if it has been robbed in the recent past, but has now established control at the entrance, but robbers still interested

Pretty hard to tell everything from a video but that is what i THINK is happening.

[ineclipse]

Hi Oldtimer, thanks.

Well I guess if that does not look like robbing (inside or out), then I just don't know what robbing looks like. Today was just a bit too cold and wet here to make heads or tails of anything and I doubt that overheating was the issue yesterday, as it's just not that warm here right now.

The entrance may in fact be too restricted but I felt it was needed to ensure that the hives could defend. I could open up one of the 1" holes on each hive, but I am more concerned with helping that weak hive - the one you are saying seemed to have robbers checking it out... but if indeed those are potential robbers, then I hesitate to introduce a feeder there! On the other hand, that hive has almost no stores left at all, so I don't know how much I can let it hold out.
Hmmm....
J