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[Acebird]

As modest as he is MP is obviously a beekeeper of greater skill than I, his throw another log on the fire post made me envious.

I will repeat, I am a know nothing when it comes to beekeeping but if I were in your shoes and tried and failed I'd be glued to his butt until I could do what he does or, OR I would be buying his bees. He is not going to live forever either.

What is in the cosmos? If your name is Michael you have a knack with bees. There has got to be something to it.

[Daniel Y]

I suspect that moving bees south for the winter is a lot like the need to move hives to California every summer. Bees are needed in the north every year, but keeping them there all year has big issues. That about right?

I also see the weakness Ace refers to may be getting built into you colonies as well. All that February build up is getting bred to southern bees or something like that. Not that it is a reason to stop doing it. I am fairly certain you do not do what you do simply due to boredom or anything.

But man it sure sounds like a lot of work and risk. I suppose you are going to remove the honey anyway. But the thought of the risk brings the thread of the wrecked truck to mind.

I do have a question about the nucs you create along the way. What do you do with them? are they used to replace dead hives? just bees that you add to other colonies without re queening them. Do they create a late season source for buying nucs? I suspect there is not really a great market for late season nucs though.

You started on Oct 6th, it is now Oct 25th. so 19 days and you now have honey all gathered up and hives broken down to just the bees scattered over 14 yards? still have to gather up all those hives move them south and then spread them out again. Sounds to me like it runs into at least a couple months of work. My hat is off to you, seriously, that is some impressive effort.

When will you turn around and make the trip back?

I also gather that a large part of doing this is about that early build up that you can then bring back up north to do some real damage there. I guess in my mind it is more about bringing southern bees north each year rather than taking northern bees south.

It is also in my mind that taking bees south allows them to produce during a time they would otherwise be dormant. Is that true. Do you see any harvest from them during the time they are in the south? I suppose this whole idea of truck loads of bees getting moved around is just new to me. I knew they moved bees around in California by the truck load, but those Californians are weird anyway But I thought it as just a few miles sort of thing.

Overall this entire thread leaves me with the thought. This would make a great documentary. "Fall of the Beekeeper". Get it, Fall? Autumn. he he. Okay so the title needs some work. I just think the common person would find this whole thing fascinating. or maybe it's just me. I can't imagine placing my entire livelihood on a truck and letting someone drive it around.

[camero7]

You might read "Following the Bloom" by Whynott. The story of Andy Card. Fascinating and will answer almost all of your questions.

[rrussell6870]

Actually, don't you think it all works together? The selection for wintering starts with the nucs, and the better a colony winters the better the possibilities when the honey flows arrive.

Yep. That's exactly right. I was referring to the "honey and nuc production" operations as being different in the migratory sense... in one way they are not developing identifiable traits specific to a particular region, but on the other hand, they have hives packed with brood in early spring due to the southern flows, so they can produce nucs to sell, then produce a few hundred lbs of honey, then by the time the south gets hot and the flows start slowing, they can run north and repeat the process all over again as the northern flows are just starting to get rolling...

I think its important for newbies to understand the differences in the flows between the regions... in the south, the bees build up in Feb-March and the main flow for production runs from March to Mid May... then the temps are getting so high that the blooms are drying and the flow is dwindling... a dearth begins unless there is agriculture nearby... the next big flow is in the late fall... for instance right now... while in the north, the flow really gets going about the time that the southern flow is dwindling but many more plants are blooming at once since they had all been repressed by winter and the summer temps are mild enough to be equal to a southern spring... so there is a long and heavy flow...

So wintering bees in the south allows an operation to produce bees and honey there, the do it all over again in the north, then return to the south to reduce having to feed and replace bees...

From a breeders standpoint, you need bees stationary in order to truly see whether their productivity is due to their genetics or their location... so for me, I keep bees stationary in all of the regions that I can... this way I move my work instead of the bees... I can rear queens in the south early and then rotate focus more toward the northern locations as the season progresses... it works well and I just move myself instead of the bees... speaking of which, I'm looking for more operations that wish to produce queens from my stocks in their area for acclimation promotion... if interested, just pm me it email me. Thanks.

[hpm08161947]

I don't know from nothing. But could this be because you actually have southern bees that you bring north and not northern bees that you bring south?

So Mark has Southern Bees? Guess I have Northern Bees since I get my queens from one of your neighbors... upstate. I suspect it is a lot more complicated than that.

[Acebird]

Again, what do I know? But I really don't think it matters where you get your queen from when you are talking about southern bees vs. northern bees. I think what matters is what your bees have been accustom to climate wise. If your bees are temporarily in the north but they never see a northern winter they are southern bees no matter where the queen came from. If you get a southern queen and she never see the south again are you still going to call her offspring southern bees?

I do think where you get your queen from will affect survivability.

[Acebird]

So wintering bees in the south allows an operation to produce bees and honey there, the do it all over again in the north, then return to the south to reduce having to feed and replace bees...

Now I can see the economics if you are harvesting another crop to pay for the losses and moving expenses.

OK now I have to ask if you are working the hive nearly full time when is the queen warn out? Wouldn't you have to replace more often. Are you getting the extra crop for free (only considering the queen now)? Or is this another reason hive loses are greater when you work them two seasons in one?

[hpm08161947]

I think what matters is what your bees have been accustom to climate wise.

You know... with the exception of Queens... most bees only live long enough to experience one season. Not much chance for adaptation.

[Daniel Y]

You know... with the exception of Queens... most bees only live long enough to experience one season. Not much chance for adaptation.

Not true, a colony is to some degree an organism in itself. One example I can think of of how a colony adapts even though the individuals never live long enough to. A queen hatches in a particular location. Who knows what factors influence her behavior. does she lay does she not, does she lay a lot or a little is she in winter spring summer or fall mode basically. Exactly what are the signals that influence these behaviors? Quite possibly they are coming from the environment and the portion of that environment that is being brought in to the hive. Now move that hive to a completely different environment with completely different and even alien signals. different timing , longer winter, shorter summer cooler night throughout the year. Some things the colony may adapt to quickly others they may adapt to more slowly and some they may not be able to adapt to at all. the Colony suffers and does what comes naturally. They produce a queen and that queen breeds with local drones. Hopefully introducing traits that are more adapted to the area.
To some degree individual bees do adapt. in other ways the entire colony must adapt and still in others only generations can effect the adaptation.

[rrussell6870]

Now I can see the economics if you are harvesting another crop to pay for the losses and moving expenses.

OK now I have to ask if you are working the hive nearly full time when is the queen warn out? Wouldn't you have to replace more often. Are you getting the extra crop for free (only considering the queen now)? Or is this another reason hive loses are greater when you work them two seasons in one?

Na. Just like keeping queens in the north promotes adaptation to long winters, keeping queens in constant season promotes adaptation to long seasons... a healthy, well mated queen will last 3-5 years regardless of how many eggs she lays each season...

I have developed brood factory queens that are laying 3-4 deeps wall to wall consistently to provide me with brood frames for multiple purposes, and they last just as long as the Carniolans and AMMs that shut down if the nectar flow decreases...

The key is to produce healthy queens, then get them mated and developed well...

[rrussell6870]

The workers in the colony do communicate stresses throughout the colony which are then answered genetically via the drones and the queen of the next generation... however, this is a very long process and can average about 140 generations before the stress is answered and the new set of traits appear consistently with each new generation... after that happens the whole process has to start over if the stress is reversed suddenly... particular traits may already exist close to the surface from more recent stresses, thus quickening the process... climatic stresses are among those that respond more readily in the bees of the US due to the workings of our industry...

It is the queen that carries the burden of timing her laying in order to survive harsh winters, thus taking a queen from the north and placing her in the south usually means replacement within the first full year, but then that new queen will have to be replaced once again within the next full year in order to express the traits picked up by mating with the southern drones... she still may not have the timing down perfectly though, this could still take many generations of being in that climate before the timing is perfected...

So while the bees are communicating the stresses, the only real stress that Marks bees would be communicating is that the season is long and thus demands more brood production earlier, throughout, and later in the season...

[sqkcrk]

Why is it that experienced knowledgeable beekeepers like to mentor new beekeepers on what they do but are reluctant to listen to their own peers because it is different than what they have been doing for so long. Is it just fear of the unknown or the loss of the desire to experiment like they did when they first started?

I do listen to my peers. And I take what I hear and try to apply to my life and management practices those things that suit me and my circumstances. I have alot of peers that I discuss things w/. Most are not on beesource.com, though some are and some lurk here, but don't Post.

I don't know that I ever did all that much experimenting when I first started out. Made lots of mistakes, but not alot of experimentation. I mostly did what I do now and that is doing what seems to work for those I admire and respect and who seem to be successful.

[sqkcrk]

It might be a way to get off the treadmill.

What do commercial beekeepers do through the winter whether you are from the south or the north?

I know I am opinionated but I also have a suspicion that pollinating apples and fruits in general adds to the death rate of your bees.

Mike has done alot of work rearing queens from colonies that overwinter well to his criteria. I bought some from him and saw some of them in my hives last Spring, in SC. I'm not sure where the rest of them are. Superseded probably. I got them in '09 I believe. Anyway, Mike has Northern bees. My bees are mongrels, Caucasians, Carniolans, Italians and mixed. They are Northern bees that Winter in the South, or Southern bees that Summer in the North. Many originally came from California, FL and SC. The ones from SC came from Kutik Queens, reared by Lynn Barton. all the rest are raise their own queens.

We are all on Treadmills. I'm on the one I like, mostly. If I didn't like it I would change Treadmills.

I don't know that pollinating adds to the death rate of my bees, but it might. Moving has as much to do w/ it I suspect.

During the winter? Go to meetings.

[sqkcrk]

but keeping them there all year has big issues. That about right?

But man it sure sounds like a lot of work and risk.

What do you do with them? are they used to replace dead hives?

Sounds to me like it runs into at least a couple months of work. My hat is off to you, seriously, that is some impressive effort.

When will you turn around and make the trip back?

I guess in my mind it is more about bringing southern bees north each year rather than taking northern bees south.

It is also in my mind that taking bees south allows them to produce during a time they would otherwise be dormant. Is that true. Do you see any harvest from them during the time they are in the south?

It does for me.

I don't know anyone who doesn't have risk in their life. Me, I just do what needs to be done to try to keep as many hives alive as possible, which means trucking them South. And I have a good reliable trucker who has a bee suit, gloves and a smoker and will get on top and spread out the net. He's a keeper.

Nucs are mostly for selling. But, I use the ones I don't sell by replacing duds that happen from time to time. I try to come home w/ a live colony on every corner of the pallet, so I don't need lots of nucs. 100 is a good number for me to bring North in the Spring.

I brought in two yards worth of bees today w/ the last of the honey. I should be able to gather up all of the hives in the next 6 or 8 days, including a honey delivery day, getting a new windshield, getting an inspection and some work done on the trailer and packing honey to take along.

Then two days to get to where I unload. A cpl days to spread them out into 6 yds. Work for a friend for a week. Unload and spread another load for another friend. And then work my way home via Herb's for BBQ and visiting, my Sister's in MD and the Fall Mtng of eshpa.org in Syracuse Nov. 17, 18 and 19. Then home the 19th.

I'll be home Nov. 19th. The bees won't come North until March.

Whatever. If you really want to think about it, we are all using European Bees anyway. So, whetrher they are Northern Bees that go South or vice versa hardly means much because I don't leave them here. I guess you are right.

Not much honey production the way I do it. I'm growing bees, not producing honey. That come later, where the honey is better anyway.

[hpm08161947]

And then work my way home via Herb's for BBQ and visiting, my Sister's in MD and the Fall Mtng of eshpa.org in Syracuse Nov. 17, 18 and 19.

And we do have some fine BBQ for you. My sister in law BBQed 4 pigs and since we assisted.. we were rewarded with quite a few pounds. Carlene took the BBQ and blended it with Venison BBQ.... then added our special local sauce (the secret is in the sauce!). I have been told that it is "To die for"... guess that is good. Just thought I'd give you something to think about on that long drive south.

[rrussell6870]

Mmm... this thread is making me hungry again!

[Mbeck]

Why and how did you come to pick SC for your winter yards.

If you had to do it differently where would you like to try to winter and were would you like to try to summer.
I say try because I don't know if you have experience keeping bees everywhere in the USA, I seem to remember you saying you were in Florida.

I bet those good old boys in South Cacalacky never saw anyone quite like you.... A Charlie Daniels song comes to mind! hehehe!

[sqkcrk]

Why and how did you come to pick SC for your winter yards.

If you had to do it differently where would you like to try to winter and were would you like to try to summer.

I bet those good old boys in South Cacalacky never saw anyone quite like you.... A Charlie Daniels song comes to mind! hehehe!

It was where a friend took his hives. He owns land there. It's a two day drive. Parents lived halfway between here and SC. Pollen is supposedly better than FL. FL is another day away. I spend 6 weeks in SC. FL was almost 3 months.

I don't know what to say in response to the Charlie Daniels thing. You been looking at some photos?

One time I thought about taking bees to ND. I have a Sister-in-Law out there. Her Husband farms some 3,000 acres.

[Mbeck]

I was just curious on what set of circumstances led you to SC.

I certainly don't want to offend you or the great people of SC but Central New York is not south Carolina and it is possible to stick out like a sore thumb.

That said I'm from Western New York and lived on the border of South Carolina, spent lots of time there and its truly one of my favorite places. It's full of great people but you do not need to remind them that you are not from there.

The song I was thinking of was "Uneasy Rider". I would gather from your post your not " faithfull follower of Brother John Burch
and Don't belong to the Antioch Baptist Church!!!

[jim lyon]

if I were in your shoes and tried and failed I'd be glued to his butt until I could do what he does or, OR I would be buying his bees. it.

Too late for that, I already sold out for the greed of migratory beekeeping long ago and that has hardly been a failure, it's just more work and risk than most folks want and being a net seller instead of buyer of bees has been a real boost. Besides I am pretty sure Mr. Palmer dosent want me glued to his butt