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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Essential Oils source?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kieck View Post
    Such as DEET? Or permethrin?
    I was thinking about lemongrass oil commonly used for bees. I apologize for misleading opinion. By the way, I do believe that DEET and permethrin are not essential oils. Is this thread about the source of essential oils?
    Серёжа, Sergey

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Essential Oils source?

    By the way, I do believe that DEET and permethrin are not essential oils. -cerezha
    Right. I was simply trying (maybe by pushing it too far) to point out that "safe to use on human skin" does not equate to "safe to apply in a bee hive." And, still, unregistered pesticides used in bee hives are illegal. You might deem the risk acceptable for your purposes, you might never get caught, but it's still illegal.

    Is this thread about the source of essential oils? -cerezha
    Yes, it is, but thymol is the only one to my knowledge that has a formulation registered and labeled for use in bee hives. The rest are illegal for use as pesticides in hives.

    If someone started a thread on the best formulation or source of DDT for use against Varroa, I hope that someone would quickly point out that such use is illegal, regardless of the formulation or source.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Essential Oils source?

    I'm not one to argue. So I will just state that Kieck, you were the first one in this thread to suggest using EO's as a pesticide. Before that the only stated use was as a feeding stimulant. Nice strawman you built to re-direct the thread. But I found out what I needed to know. Thanks again genie for the helpful info you provided.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Essential Oils source?

    Huh. Could have sworn I read something in this thread about using one as a fungicide, a class of pesticides. Also thought tea tree oil was brought up in this thread, hardly an oil that I would imagine would "stimulate" bees to feed. With the frequency that essential oils are mentioned as treatments against various pests, I believed folks reading this might be considering that as well. My apologies for the digression.

    At the risk of digressing in a different way, seems to me that when not much is blooming, sugar syrup without anything else added to it is a pretty strong "feeding stimulant." Then again, I prefer to forego feeding syrup as much as possible.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Essential Oils source?

    interestingly, lemongrass oil is listed at EPA site as a pesticide to repel cats and dogs:
    http://iaspub.epa.gov/apex/pesticide...EMICAL_ID:3159
    Who interested, I summarize registered "biopesticides" (floral oils) in the table below:
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by cerezha; 02-06-2013 at 11:21 PM. Reason: repel cats and dogs
    Серёжа, Sergey

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Essential Oils source?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kieck View Post
    Huh. Could have sworn I read something in this thread about using one as a fungicide, a class of pesticides. Also thought tea tree oil was brought up in this thread, hardly an oil that I would imagine would "stimulate" bees to feed. With the frequency that essential oils are mentioned as treatments against various pests, I believed folks reading this might be considering that as well. My apologies for the digression.

    At the risk of digressing in a different way, seems to me that when not much is blooming, sugar syrup without anything else added to it is a pretty strong "feeding stimulant." Then again, I prefer to forego feeding syrup as much as possible.
    Perhaps you also missed another detail, such as this is NOT the treatment-free forum?

    Rusty
    Rusty Hills Farm -- home of AQHA A Rusty Zipper & Rusty's Bees ( LC and T)

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Essential Oils source?

    Who interested, I summarize registered "biopesticides" (floral oils) in the table below: -cerezha
    I didn't see any legal listed sites that included "in bee hives" or "in syrup to feed bees." Did I miss one?

    Perhaps you also missed another detail, such as this is NOT the treatment-free forum? -Rusty Hills Farm
    No. I'm not advocating "treatment free" here. There is a difference, I think, between "treatment free" and "not using illegal treatments."

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Essential Oils source?

    I guess there's two ways you can look at things regarding legal. One way is that it is legal only if it's explicitly stated to be so. The other is that it is legal unless it's explicitly stated that it's not. So depending upon your presupposition your definition of legal may differ from someone else's.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Essential Oils source?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kieck View Post
    I didn't see any legal listed sites that included "in bee hives" or "in syrup to feed bees." Did I miss one?
    I have no idea - go to the EPA site and do your own research, than - report there. I shared information as a courtesy to beesource members - use it, or not.
    As for legality - in US it is very unpredictable waters because "law" is mostly based on "precedent" - if judge decided once - this decision is a foundation to further decisions of similar kind... judge may decide that lemongrass is poison and so will be unless higher court "undo" previous decision... there are million ridiculous "laws" in US especially on local levels - somewhere holding brown bags in hands was prohibited... Also, all "laws" from the past are enacted unless specifically cancelled.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Essential Oils source?

    I guess there's two ways you can look at things regarding legal. -Greg Lowe
    At the risk of beating a dead ... "straw man," I guess, I'm not certain this matter is as ambiguous as what you suggest. Pesticides are registered and labeled for specific uses, or they are illegal for those uses. The labels of pesticides list where, when and how they can be used. They also state, "It is a violation of federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with this label," or similar verbiage.

    Just as an example, no where is it expressed stated that it is illegal to mop a kitchen floor with chlordane to control ants, yet such a use is illegal.

    I did pull up the list of exempted pesticides -- those deemed safe enough that they require no registration for use -- and that list can be found here: http://www.epa.gov/PR_Notices/pr2000-6.pdf

    Lemon grass oil is listed in the appendix, meaning, I think, that lemon grass oil can be used freely against whatever pests you'd like inside beehives or in syrup.

    With some caveats, I think it is still worth noting that use of some of the products (such as tea tree oil) in ways that they are not labeled and registered is illegal. For the good of all involved and the integrity of the beekeeping industry in general, following state and federal pesticide laws are critical.
    Last edited by Kieck; 02-07-2013 at 02:03 PM.

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Essential Oils source?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kieck View Post
    ...
    With some caveats, I think it is still worth noting that use of some of the products (such as tea tree oil) to ways that they are not labeled and registered is illegal...
    Which is where we won't ever agree as we have different presuppositions about "legal".

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Essential Oils source?

    I'm not in the compliance or enforcement part of this sort of topic, and I'm glad I'm not. Having said that, I believe the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide and Rodenticide Act (FIFRA) and subsequent pesticide regulations are quite clear. The acts give regulatory control to the EPA: the "EPA is specifically authorized to: (1) strengthen the registration process by shifting the burden of proof to the chemical manufacturer, (2) enforce compliance against banned and unregistered products, and (3) promulgate the regulatory framework missing from the original law." (quoted from the EPA Web page at http://www.epa.gov/oecaagct/lfra.html)

    Whether or not the EPA enforces the regulations and laws in place is up to them, of course.

    Aside from the legality, uses of unregistered and off-label products strike me as irresponsible and potential damaging to the industry in this case at best. Why do you suppose honey is tested for pesticide and antibiotic (which fall under the FDA, and not the EPA) residues now?

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Essential Oils source?

    Kieck, I must admit you have me scratching my head. Since when are essential oils considered to be PESTICIDES?!? Their most common usage is in aromatherapy. People do NOT inhale pesticides as part of any therapy I ever heard of! They are also used in alternative medicine and, again, I have never heard of using pesticides as part of a medical regimen. They are also commonly used in soaps and lotions--again, not pesticides. And some are used in cooking! So where are you getting this idea that they are pesticides?!? I have NEVER seen a commercially produced bottle of essential oil labeled as a pesticide. Nor have I seen anyone on this thread recommend they be used as pesticides or in lieu of pesticides, so why are you insisting on all this pesticide blather?



    Rusty
    Rusty Hills Farm -- home of AQHA A Rusty Zipper & Rusty's Bees ( LC and T)

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Essential Oils source?

    If you use powdered sugar to dust for mites... is that a pesticide?

    I think I poisoned myself with a donut this morning

    Before I die I will say that I have used LorAnn oils in the past and have been pleased with the price and service. Their main business is candy and baking supplies, However, they also sell aromatherapy and spa stuff that I steer clear of.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Essential Oils source?

    Since when are essential oils considered to be PESTICIDES?!? -Rusty Hills Farm
    Just as one example of a past thread here on Beesource:

    http://www.beesource.com/forums/arch.../t-236431.html

    The idea of using essential oils to kill mites (both Varroa and tracheal mites) has been suggested and attempted and sometimes reported as very successful among beekeepers. However, as I have tried to point out here in this thread again, any product intended to kill a pest organism is a pesticide. It's really very simple. The EPA does not regulated certain chemicals that they consider to be safe (see the list in the link I posted earlier in this thread), and the EPA does not regulate certain chemicals that they consider inert (i. e. water, sugar, and others).

    I read a suggestion about tea tree oil higher in this thread. I'll admit that I jumped a bit to the conclusion that such an essential oil would be intended to kill or harm mites. Other posters have been fairly insistent here that all of the oils mentioned here are intended to stimulate feeding on sugar syrup by honey bees. I still have difficulty believing that honey bees would find tea tree oil irresistable, and that its intended purpose in a bee hive is to better attract bees to syrup that attracts bees without tea tree oil.

    ... I have never heard of using pesticides as part of a medical regimen. -Rusty Hills Farm
    Really? Ask a doctor what they would recommend to treat intestinal parasites or scabies. Ask an infectious disease person what they would recommend to lessen your risk of mosquito-vectored or tick-borne diseases. I'll wager that you'll hear about use of pesticides as a course of medical treatment and use on humans in lotion or spray-on form to repel or kill insects.

    But this digresses from the topic of the thread.

    I have NEVER seen a commercially produced bottle of essential oil labeled as a pesticide. -Rusty Hills Farm
    I have. I mentioned using garlic oil against mosquitoes. I've applied capsaicin (the essential oil of hot peppers) in pesticide form and labeled for use as a pesticide on field crops to try to control aphids. Some folks use tea tree oil to try to kill head lice on humans. Api Life VAR incorporates essential oils as its active ingredients.

    If you use powdered sugar to dust for mites... is that a pesticide? -Huntertn
    I believe powdered sugar falls under the "food" category.

    http://www.epa.gov/opprd001/inerts/#Food

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Essential Oils source?

    However, as I have tried to point out here in this thread again, any product intended to kill a pest organism is a pesticide. It's really very simple.
    And as the other posters on this thread have tried to point out--repeatedly--NO ONE on this thread is asking about EO usage as a pesticide!!! So I repeat, why all the insistence that anyone wants to use it as such?!?

    I still have difficulty believing that honey bees would find tea tree oil irresistible, and that its intended purpose in a bee hive is to better attract bees to syrup that attracts bees without tea tree oil.
    And I hate to break it to you, but you don't get to make that decision. The person who owns the bees gets to make that decision. It's really very simple. If YOU don't approve of that usage, then don't use it that way. And the rest of us will make our own decisions about what we will feed our own bees.

    Thank you.

    Rusty
    Last edited by Rusty Hills Farm; 02-08-2013 at 07:03 AM.
    Rusty Hills Farm -- home of AQHA A Rusty Zipper & Rusty's Bees ( LC and T)

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Essential Oils source?

    So I repeat, why all the insistence that anyone wants to use it as such?!? -Rusty Hills Farm
    My apologies, Rusty Hills Farm. As I attempted to explain above, I may have jumped a bit farther in my conclusion of the discussion in this thread because of past threads also on use of essential oils and mention of at least one product that is used in other settings both as a insecticide and as an insect repellent. I understand that you find it to be very important to getting your bees to eat.

    I was simply trying to remind others reading this thread to consider the implications and potential ramifications of using unregistered and unlabeled products for pest control. I understand you are not intending these oils for pest control. Others may be thinking differently.

    And I hate to break it to you, but you don't get to make that decision. -Rusty Hills Farm
    I'm not sure why it is that you don't think I have the right to decide what I do or do not believe. All the same, can you provide me with some evidence that tea tree oil is attractive to bees and stimulates them to eat?

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Essential Oils source?

    I tried to start a new thread for you but haven't got permissions to do so. I was going to ask :

    "Is anyone aware of any studies conducted by any reputable entity that shows without a shadow of a doubt tea tree oil when mixed with solid or liquid feed does not enhance the desire of the Apis Mellifera to feed more vigorously?

    If such a study has been conducted please share how copies of it may be obtained.

    For the purpose of this question please do not include testimonials to the contrary. I don't doubt it can be a feeding stimulant. I want to know if there is research that shows it is not. "

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Essential Oils source?

    I'm not sure why it is that you don't think I have the right to decide what I do or do not believe.
    I was not questioning your right to believe whatever you want. I was reminding you that you cannot make the decision of what to believe/not believe for anyone but yourself.

    As to the evidence, how about reading the jar/literature of Honey Bee Healthy. I do believe the folks who actually created HBH were/are researchers from U of WV who created their formula in the course of their honey bee research, which they published, and which is how I got the notion that such a formula might be helpful to my bees. I've been around for awhile, so I got to see the earlier online reports they wrote. The current ones no longer actually include the details on the basis for their formula, but the early ones did, and I had saved copies and based my own formula on them, which I have used for a few years with what I feel are excellent results.

    Rusty
    Last edited by Rusty Hills Farm; 02-09-2013 at 07:32 AM.
    Rusty Hills Farm -- home of AQHA A Rusty Zipper & Rusty's Bees ( LC and T)

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Essential Oils source?

    Here is a link with background on the development of HBH from the U of WV, including a reference to tea tree oil:
    http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/honeyBhlth.htm
    Last edited by Rader Sidetrack; 02-09-2013 at 08:05 AM. Reason: rephrase
    Graham
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