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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Walker, Alabama, USA
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    916

    Default Re: Essential Oils source?

    For the purpose of this question please do not include testimonials to the contrary. I don't doubt it can be a feeding stimulant. I want to know if there is research that shows it is not. --Greg Lowe
    FWIW I have never seen any such research.

    HTH

    Rusty
    Rusty Hills Farm -- home of AQHA A Rusty Zipper & Rusty's Bees ( LC and T)

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfield County, Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    3,661

    Default Re: Essential Oils source?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Lowe View Post
    Has anyone tried oils from http://www.wfmed.com
    I bought some eo from wfmed several years ago and shipping was free. Heavy users might be interested in Lebermuth.
    http://www.lebermuth.com/
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Walker, Alabama, USA
    Posts
    916

    Default Re: Essential Oils source?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    Here is a link with background on the development of HBH from the U of WV, including a reference to tea tree oil:
    http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/honeyBhlth.htm
    From that page I found these notes:
    "EPA. 1994. (Environmental Protection Agency.) Inert ingredients in Pesticide Products; list of minimal risk inerts. Federal Register, Weds., Sep 28, 1994, Vol. 59, No. 187: 49400-49401. �Inert ingredients include acetic acid, beeswax, cinnamon, cloves, food, hydrogenated vegetable oil, linseed oil, mineral oil, olive oil, parafin wax, safflower oil, wintergreen oil, vanillin, xanthan gum, and many others, are of minimal risk� (and are also exempt from FIFRA, see EPA 1996)."

    "EPA. 1996. (Environmental Protection Agency.) Exemption of certain pesticide substances from Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act Requirements. Federal Register, Weds., Mar. 6, 1996, Vol. 61, No. 45: 8876-8879. �Cinnamon oil, citronella oil, lemongrass oil, mint and mint oil [eg., Patchouli oil], peppermint oil, and many others, are exempt from FIFRA.�"
    --which I am posting here so that anyone worried that they might somehow do something "illegal" by using EOs can see this is not the case and can follow up for more detail if they so desire. So if you want to try them, it is NOT illegal for you to do so! Don't let anyone scare you into thinking otherwise!

    JMO

    Rusty

    Edited to add that this research is probably where I got the idea that EOs are not pesticides, since most of the ones used by beeks are on the exempt list, as are the shortenings we use for grease patties and the FGMO that is sometimes used for fogging. Beeks by and large do seem to opt for the most benign items to use in their hives.
    Last edited by Rusty Hills Farm; 02-09-2013 at 10:43 AM.
    Rusty Hills Farm -- home of AQHA A Rusty Zipper & Rusty's Bees ( LC and T)

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Volga, SD
    Posts
    2,790

    Default Re: Essential Oils source?

    "Is anyone aware of any studies conducted by any reputable entity that shows without a shadow of a doubt tea tree oil when mixed with solid or liquid feed does not enhance the desire of the Apis Mellifera to feed more vigorously?

    If such a study has been conducted please share how copies of it may be obtained.

    For the purpose of this question please do not include testimonials to the contrary. I don't doubt it can be a feeding stimulant. I want to know if there is research that shows it is not. " -Greg Lowe
    I'm glad you apparently could not start a thread under my name with this. I don't know why you wouldn't be able to simply start a thread under your own name and ask for this information. However, you've spun it to be counter to what I asked. Let me see if I can make it clear.

    I stated my opinion, based on my experience and logic: I do not believe that adding tea tree oil to sugar syrup will make that sugar syrup more appealing to bees (i. e. "stimulate feeding") than plain sugar syrup.

    To sway my opinion, I want to see evidence that syrup with tea tree oil added does, in fact, appeal more to bees than sugar syrup without tea tree oil. I believe that adding tea tree oil will make sugar syrup no more appealing to bees than plain sugar syrup is. Demonstrate my belief wrong, please.

    I was not questioning your right to believe whatever you want. -Rusty Hills Farm
    I posted what I thought and my opinion to try to explain an earlier post of mine, and why I had reached a conclusion (maybe farther than others in the thread intended, but I reached it anyway). I never stated that anyone else needed to or should feel the same way that I did and do. I leave others' interpretations up to them.

    Here is a link with background on the development of HBH from the U of WV, including a reference to tea tree oil:
    http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/honeyBhlth.htm -Radar Sidetrack
    I see that Rusty Hills Farm has quoted from this source already. I won't repeat a lot of it here, but I think the first sentence in this link is frank and demonstrates some of the intentions that have gone along with uses of some of these products:

    From 1995 until 2000, Amrine & Noel (2001) tested several essential oils in diluted honey and sugar syrup as feeding additives to honey bees, in order to attempt to control varroa mites, tracheal mites and to reverse the parasitic mite syndrome (PMS) seen in colonies infested with varroa mites. -http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/honeyBhlth.htm
    Do you see why I might reach the conclusion that folks might look at essential oils as pesticides?

    Along those same lines, nothing in the link that I can find suggests that any of the essential oils "stimulate feeding." Rather, the authors suggest that small amounts may accomplish some other goals, but I find nothing about enticing bees.

    --which I am posting here so that anyone worried that they might somehow do something "illegal" by using EOs can see this is not the case and can follow up for more detail if they so desire. -Rusty Hills Farm
    Out of curiosity, did you follow the link I posted in post #32 of this thread? Page 10 of that link lists what I think is the EPA's most recent list of "minimal risk chemicals," those that do not require registration for use. And in post #35, I listed the general page for information on inert ingredients on the EPA's Web site. The more specific list is here: http://www.epa.gov/opprd001/inerts/s...25b_inerts.pdf.

    I think the caution you urge, Rusty Hills Farm, to "follow up for more detail if they so desire," is excellent advice. I do believe simply lumping all "essential oils" as "safe" goes a bit far. As an example, we've tossed tea tree oil into the discussion on this thread quite a bit already, and I cannot seem to find it on either the EPA's list of minimal risk chemicals or the list of inert ingredients. Before using such a product, checking into the regulations that might be associated with an application seems like a wise thing to do.

    Also, I should point out that "tea tree oil" is not listed in the WVU link as an ingredient in Honey-B-Healthy, after they say that lemongrass oil (which is on the minimal risk list for the EPA) and spearmint oil (which is also listed in that same EPA list) were selected, as well as lecithin (on the EPA's inert list), because those ingredients required no registration as pesticides.
    Last edited by Kieck; 02-09-2013 at 12:48 PM.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Walker, Alabama, USA
    Posts
    916

    Default Re: Essential Oils source?

    Oh, come off it already. You were saber-rattling with a bunch of nonsense about "illegal use" when, in fact, most EOs are exempt from FIFRA rules! Remember this:
    More importantly, the essential oils they are selling are not registered and labeled for use as pesticides. The statement made in the shop told them that you plan to use them illegally. Any product used like this with the intent to kill organisms (with a few exceptions) are considered pesticides, and must go through safety and environmental evaluations with the EPA before being registered and labeled.
    You are most certainly entitled to choose not to use EOs if you so wish. But it is just not right to try to scare others away from using exempt treatments just because you don't approve of them. Grease patties, FGMO spraying, powdered sugar treatments, and a long list of EOs are exempt and benign treatments that are certainly NOT illegal. Whether any or all of them are effective is another matter entirely, and one individual beeks have a right to decide for themselves.

    And to think all of this started just because someone wanted some lemongrass oil for some bait hives!

    JMO

    Rusty
    Last edited by Rusty Hills Farm; 02-09-2013 at 05:01 PM. Reason: edited because I cannot spell!
    Rusty Hills Farm -- home of AQHA A Rusty Zipper & Rusty's Bees ( LC and T)

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Volga, SD
    Posts
    2,790

    Default Re: Essential Oils source?

    Oh, come off it already. You were saber-rattling with a bunch of nonsense about "illegal use" when, in fact, most EOs are exempt from FIFRA rules! Remember this: -Rusty Hills Farm
    Naw, but I can see why you might think that. I operate with regards to stuff like this to err on the side of caution. Regardless of how "safe" or "inert" I might think something is, I don't take for granted that it is or that it's legal to use in such settings. I don't have those EPA lists I linked in earlier posts memorized. My guess is that few of the people who might be reading this thread even realized such lists or regulations exist.

    I know folks who operate the other way. I've seen plenty of cases where beekeepers use some very toxic insecticides because it is less expensive to control mites that way than with legal methods. (Please bear in mind that I'm not making an accusations against you or anyone else specifically.) I've seen and read enough about amitraz that I will go ahead and name it here. Some formulations of amitraz are labeled for use in specific ways inside bee hives. Buying formulations of amitraz labeled for other purposes and applying them in hives has caused some serious problems, and it's illegal. A number of beekeepers have been caught at it and penalized for it. I'm well aware that lemongrass oil and amitraz are different. But who gets to decide such things? The person who wants to use them? How far do you go with such things? What about various antibiotics that have also shown in some honey samples? Since those antibiotics are safe enough for humans to take, should it simply be up to the discretion of the beekeeper who wants to use them in or around hives?

    The potential for foreign chemicals to start showing up in honey and the possibility of consumer backlash is a concern, I think. I tend to operate to try to keep exotic chemicals out of honey.

    But I see this going nowhere good or productive from here, so I will bow out of this thread at this point.

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