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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
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    Tulsa, OK
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    3,842

    Default Looking for Treatment-Free Study

    The other post about a planned treatment-free study reminded me of something I'm looking for and can't find but read once. I know I read a summary of a treatment-free study in Bee Culture several years ago, in one of the sections they do periodically that summarizes new research. I read a summary about a study where they took bees that have Varroa out to an Island, did not treat, and basically watched what happened. What happened was that a lot of bees died the first year or two but started rebounding by year 3. I think this was done in a Scandinavian country.

    Anybody have any idea where I can find this?

    Neil

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    carney, maryland, USA
    Posts
    844

    Default Re: Looking for Treatment-Free Study

    Sorry I can't help you, but I wanted to ask if you remember the reason (or guess) for the bees rebounding, i.e. did they develop a resistance to the virus that varroa carry?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Mtn. View, Arkansas, USA
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    1,471

    Default Re: Looking for Treatment-Free Study

    "Survival of mite infested honey bee colonies in a Nordic climate" by Fries.
    37 years - 25 colonies - IPM disciple - naturally skeptic

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
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    Tulsa, OK
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    3,842

    Default Re: Looking for Treatment-Free Study

    They did not study the mechanism, just what happened. But it was obviously a case of survival of the fittest bees and mites.

    ARBeek, I think that is it, but Googling that title does not get me to an article. Any ideas how I can locate the article?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    7,434

    Default Re: Looking for Treatment-Free Study

    Gee Neil, maybe the problem is you used Bing or Yahoo search engines instead of Google?

    Try this link ... http://www.apidologie.org/articles/a...6/05/m6039.pdf
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
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    Mtn. View, Arkansas, USA
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    1,471

    Default Re: Looking for Treatment-Free Study

    "Honey bee colonies that have survived Varroa Destructor" Apidologie vol. 38 may interest you also.
    37 years - 25 colonies - IPM disciple - naturally skeptic

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Tulsa, OK
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    3,842

    Default Re: Looking for Treatment-Free Study

    That's the one!!!

    I used Google, but it took me to a gigantic list and to articles written in some Nordic-looking language.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Cross Plains, WI
    Posts
    46

    Default Re: Looking for Treatment-Free Study

    Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

    If I am reading it correctly, the author suggests that natural evolutionary mite controls can exist if the population can be kept mostly isolated. .....And if it does not kill them outright. LOL

    This is probably what we see in operations like Michael Bush and Tim Ives. In fact I think both have said as much.

    Andrew

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    47,854

    Default Re: Looking for Treatment-Free Study

    >This is probably what we see in operations like Michael Bush and Tim Ives. In fact I think both have said as much.

    Here's what I have said:
    http://www.bushfarms.com/beessctheories.htm
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Poplar Bluff, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    2,317

    Default Re: Looking for Treatment-Free Study

    Folks such as I have had great success using "treatment free" bees developed by some of the breeders. My guess is some of those breeders did not do any studies per se, they just kept breeding survivors until they got the survival rate up to a very acceptable level. FWIW, my losses this year were only 13%

    Regards,
    Steven
    "If all you have is a hammer, the whole world is a nail." - A.H. Maslow

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,881

    Default Re: Looking for Treatment-Free Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    I love this quote Michael, thank you:

    ""Bees that combine genuine hardiness, mite-resistance and productivity can only be maintained in the long run by having many hundreds of colonies constantly exposed to mites—and all the other known and unknown stresses in the real world, commercial beekeeping environment. This is the only way the bees can be tested for all the characteristics they need in order to thrive. And this testing and selection must continue year after year—to keep building up their resilience, and help the bees adapt to a changing world."—Kirk Webster"

    Your piece seems to me to be slightly unclear about the difference - or not - between forced small cell and natural cell. Sometime you speak as if they are interchangable. Is this because you believe that forcing large bees to regress is necessary - or distinctly advantageous - if you have large bees top begin with; but if you already have smallish bees that make smallish cells, and continue being small, then there's no advantage to small cell plastic frames?

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    47,854

    Default Re: Looking for Treatment-Free Study

    >Your piece seems to me to be slightly unclear about the difference - or not - between forced small cell and natural cell. Sometime you speak as if they are interchangable. Is this because you believe that forcing large bees to regress is necessary - or distinctly advantageous - if you have large bees top begin with; but if you already have smallish bees that make smallish cells, and continue being small, then there's no advantage to small cell plastic frames?

    The concept is smaller (more natural sized) cells. Both have smaller cells. In that respect they are interchangeable as far as cause and effect. I put the bees on both small cell and foundationless in about 2001 and 2002. I did the natural cell to see what they would build because I did not know what that was and whether or not 4.9mm was in the range of what they would build. Since after two turnovers of comb, what they built was well in the range of 4.9mm (much was 4.6mm) I decided either was an acceptable way to get to smaller cells. I have smaller cells either way. I see the same effect on the Varroa either way. My natural comb in the core of the brood nest is smaller than the 4.9mm. So if I'm "forcing" them to do anything by using small cell it's that I'm forcing them to build BIGGER cells in the core of the brood nest. I have never "forced" the bees on small cell anymore than anyone has ever "forced" the bees on large cell. I would probably be running all natural cell if I had the time to make all the frames, but the Mann Lake PF120s at the time I bought them were less than $1 each in bulk and I didn't have time to make all those frames. So I bought 3,000 of the PF120s. Frames that I can pull out of the box and put in the hive and solve my Varroa issues is a huge advantage when I have very little time.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

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