Wanting to get the queen from a trap out. HOW?

[Cleo C. Hogan Jr]

Bee Ghost...Others.... Let me share some of my experiences with trapping over the years. I am not saying that this is the only way, or that it is the best way, I am just sharing how I would do it, from what I have observed.

I don't believe I have ever had a queen come through the funnel. I doubt that she would, but she might. After the bees are going through the tunnel, all entrances are closed off except the front of the trap, and the guard bees are on the landing board, the first thing that happens is cleaners will clean the brood combs you put in the trap and the trap itself. When there are lots of cleaners in the trap, and bees are going and coming freely, place a frame of unsealed brood (NO BEES) in the trap. Don't seal off the end of the tunnel just yet. Let it be for a few days. Things will pick up very quickly. Nurse bees will move into the trap to tend the brood, more cleaners and fanners will move into the trap, workers will continue to come through the tunnel, gather pollen and nectar, and some will return to the feral colony, while others start to deposit nectar and pollen in the brood combs you provided. The queen will come into the trap to investigate the unsealed brood, in essence, wanting to know who is laying eggs in her house.

Numbers of bees will tell you a lot. IF, withing 24-48 hours you do not have 3 to 5 pounds of bees in the trap, (6-10 pounds is not uncommon the first trapping in the Spring, on a good source), it tells you a few things.
1. The colony is too weak to trap. If this is the case, just leave the trap in place and let it build up.
2. The trap is too far from the feral colony brood nest for the additional nurse bees, queen, cleaners, etc. to come out into it. Wait and see if the hive builds up and needs more room. Watch to see if workers are storing nectar in preparation for using this area as honey stores area, rather than another brood chamber, which is what you want.

If you do not find the queen in the trap or the queen does not start laying in the trap,
1. the trap may be too far from the brood nest. If this is the case, most often you will see formation of queen cells from the open brood you provided. The bees that moved out into the trap consider it a seperate place, rather than an integral part of their colony, and will try to make themselves a new queen. Once those cells are formed and capped, then, they will likely bring the queen out to investigate. If so, you will see the queen cells chewed up, or destroyed. If nothing happens to those queen cells, , those queen cells will hatch if you leave it in place, and you will have two colonies with a shared entrance. Your trap, and the original feral source. At his point, you will need to close off the end of the tunnel so bees can come out of the feral source, but, cannot go back. Get enough bees, and move, install a new queen, or, if those queen cells are still capped, let them continue making themselves a queen.
2. The queen does not need additional room to lay eggs. Again, allow the colony to build up and need additional brood combs, and area to lay.

If the tree is already crowded, the bees and the queen will immediately move into your trap because here is additional brood combs, and space for eggs and storing honey. This is what normally happens to a good, strong colony. 24 hours and you have 3-6 pounds of bees. I don't know that the bees would "push" the queen out, but, more likely she will just move out to another place to lay eggs. Another brood chamber.

Hope this has been helpful. If you have specific questions, just let me know. Happy to share my experiences with trapping.

cchoganjr

[Beev]

Mr. Hogan, first let me say thanks for taking the time and effort to share your wisdom. It is much appreciated.

My question is, when first installing the tunnel over the entrance to the tree, is there a "best" time of day to do this, and do you smoke the bees before hand?

Also, in one of the previous posts you mentioned using black plastic to seal around the entrance. I have a bunch of thick rubber material, like a pool liner. Do you think this would be ok to use?

[CaBees]

Yes thank you too for your information and help. I had a swarm move into someone's sycamore tree last week and she needs it out as it is in the middle of her yard. I've done a trap out but a little different based on the experiences of a local bee guy who is mentoring me. This method only differs in the fact he does not attach the funnel directly into a nuc but allows the bees to escape and find it on their own. I will attach a picture.

I used cardboard, netting and plumbers foam to seal up the rather large, jagged entrance. I did it in the heat of the day not on purpose, but because I went into my own bees to get a frame of comb, honey and brood. By nightfall the nuc had quite a few bees as they can't return to the mother hive and so the trap sits for a week until I can check it again. I'll bring more brood over and keep checking it to see if they are making a queen. The hive in the tree should continue to dwindle and unfortunately at the end it will be sealed up and the queen will be loss; but the hive itself will continue at another location. Mr. Hogan's most excellent method is very useful for keeping the mother hive intact; unfortunately this mother hive I'm working with cannot continue to live in the tree.

Here are the pictures; hoping in the end it will work.
BeeFunnell Apr2012.jpg

[Beev]

CA did you smoke them when you attached the funnel?

When using Mr. Hogans method, after the queen has come into the trap, you can add the funnel (in the kit) to prevent bees from returning to the mother hive. You get the same result (removal of the mother hive) but you get the queen as well. With Mr. Hogans application, as I understand it, he just removes the trap with the queen in it and gets a start, then lets the mother hive raise a new queen so he can get another start when the mother hive recovers.

Good luck with your trapout.

[CaBees]

No I did not smoke them but should have as I got a couple pretty pissed off. I need to get them out a.s.a.p. and can't wait for the queen to decide this is another chamber; especially as they are deep inside this vry old tree. Mr. Hogan's method has a 50% chance of getting the queen and one has to wait until the bees view it as a new chamber and build everything up. Unfortunately I need to just capture as many as I can and let them create a new queen, close up the hole. If it were a wild hive where no one was involved it would be a different story....

[Cleo C. Hogan Jr]

Beev When installng the tunnel to the tree, time of day does not matter. You will seal off all entrances/exits, and the tunnel is large enough for them to come and go without being confused. Try to use their primary entrance.

Thick rubber should work fine. I sometimes use plastic corn sacks. The purpose is to seal off the exits/entrances, and to blacken out all light. If the bees see light through the wrapping, they will spend all their time trying to get to the light. That is why screen wire does not work.

As with any other bee operation, smoke them only if necessary. I don't find it necessary, very often, to smoke them when installing the fitting on the tree

cchoganjr

[Cleo C. Hogan Jr]

Cabee... You are using a modification of the cone funnel method. Tested and proven over time.

In my method you will get. guard bees, nurse bees, fanners, cleaners, quicker because the trap is an integral part of the colony. In the cone funnel method, you get mostly field bees until fanners, cleaners, guard bees, nurse bees come out for cleansing flights or to rest in hot weather.

Both will work.

cchoganjr

[Greg Lowe]

Mr. Hogan,
On average, how long would you think your method would take for a trap-out versus the cone funnel method? It seems that once you get the queen in the trap box and funnel the the other entrance, you are looking at somewhere around 3-4 weeks (assuming you let the brood in the structure hatch out). The cone funnel method could take 6-8 weeks or longer.

Am I close with my timelines?

[Cleo C. Hogan Jr]

My method will also likely take 6 to 8 weeks for colony elimination.. Keep in mind that there is brood that is hatching daily in the feral colony. Also, during a good honey flow, the feral colony will immediately make themselves a new queen. From there you are looking at 20 plus days for her to start replinishing the colony. But, by that time, you will likely have taken three or four starts, and significantly weakened the hive. As you furthur weaken it, it cannot sustain itself, and the colony will perish.

The cone funnel method will work well on trapouts, I used it for years. The advantage of my improvement is that you have a good chance of getting the queen, and you get a good mix of bees for starts, In the cone funnel method, you first get field bees, then you only get nurse bees, fanners, cleaners, as they leave for cleansing flights and cannot get back to their colony, and take up residence in the trap box nearby.

In my method you immediately get guard bees, fanners, cleaners, nurse bees, etc, because the trap is an integral part of the colony. As soon as you introduce the unsealed brood, you will get a rush of bees, into the trap, with the proper mix to make a start. Traditionally within 24 - 36 hours. Remove the frames, add another unsealed brood and once again you get the mix to make starts because the trap is just another part of their colony. Remove as soon as you have three plus pounds of bees, (3 frames well covered), and you are weakening the feral colony.

Still, it is likely to take 6 to 8 weeks to eliminate the colony.

cchoganjr

[Greg Lowe]

I have been chewing on this since I got a call yesterday to remove a hive from inside a tree. They want the bees gone ASAP.

If you would, please look over this thought process and see where my flaws are, I would be very appreciative.

1. Using the Hogan Method, you get lucky and catch the queen in the trap on day 1 or day 2.
2. Then you come back and take away the bees that are there with her (to suplement another hive or to put into a nuc)
3. Add another frame of larvae/brood to the trap
4. Move the queen back into the trap with a cone/funnel over the entrance so she cant go back into the tree and lay

Option 1----------
Now the portion of the colony in the tree would not think they are queenless since their queen is still there in what they perceive to be another part of the hive giving off her phermones.

This being the case, they have no inclination to raise up an E-Queen.

Option 2----------
The portion of the colony in the tree would think they are queenless, since their queen has been MIA for a couple of days.

This being the case, they take action and raise up an E-Queen. The E queen will hatch in 13 days or so, depending upon the age of the larve used to make her. A few days later, she will go on an orientation flight, but when she leaves the tree (through the cone) she can't return. There are now no more eggs that can be used to raise up another queen inside the tree.

================================================== =======================
Regardless of what happens inside the tree with E-queen or not, in the next 3 weeks, more bees would be hatching and moving into the trap for the various reasons you have mentioned and the number of bees inside the tree would be diminishing every day. In 3 weeks, there would be no more capped brood inside the tree. It may take them another little while to deplete the stores inside the tree, but they have to eventually come through the funnel to do a cleansing flight.

After 3 weeks, from installing the funnel, there would be no more capped brood inside the tree. At this point you could remove the trap, run a small tube through the cone/funnel and blow a shot of Bee-quick inside the tree. Since there is no more brood inside, many of the remaining bees would exit immediately. Then the opening in the tree can be sealed and the trapout is over. I'm thinking this would be closer to 4 weeks.

I'm sure there is something I have overlooked and if so, it would be good to know.

All of the above plan is of course based upon getting the queen in the first day or 2. If that doesn't happen, then the clock starts ticking when you do catch the queen and get the funnel installed.

Obviously, the queen can be removed from the trapout 6-7 days after the funnel is installed if one were inclined to keep her genetics going. Because at this point, it won't matter if the bees inside the tree think they are queenless as they have no more eggs available for E-queens. Also, if the bees act using option 2, removing the old queen would allow the E-queen when she emerges through the cone to use the trap for laying eggs in after she is bred.

[CaBees]

Greg, how long have the bees been in the tree? I'm dealing with a new swarm where I don't think they've had much time to create comb for the queen to start laying; I think an established hive would be different. CaBees.

[Cleo C. Hogan Jr]

Greg Lowe Here are my comments..... Option one.

1. I would think that with the cone funnel installed, and the queen not able to move back into the feral source, the feral source would immediately create queen cells and attempt to make themselves a queen, which they could do it there are viable eggs there. This would especially be true if the trap is some distance from the feral brood nest.

2. Rather than take her, then return her, then take her away again, I would just move her and start a new hive with her genetics.

3. Moving another frame of unsealed brood will just start the trapping process all over, but with a reduced number of bees in the tree. (the ones you moved).

4. I don't see any real value to moving a queen back into the trap, if the entrance is sealed with a cone funnel, or a plastic funnel. The unsealed brood will bring the nurse bees, cleaners, fanners, etc. into the trap. The queen will likely start laying eggs in the trap, but that is not really any more beneficial than just adding the unsealed brood. I'm not sure I would want to cage and release, cage and release a queen. She might just take what bees are available and leave.

I don't think it is just giving off phermones that that will keep the feral colony from starting a queen of their own. Have you ever noticed when you make a split, and you hang the queen, but they don't get her out of the tube. They will start making a queen, even tho she is right their giving off phermones. If she isn't available and laying eggs, they will attempt to supercede her.

Option 2. If a queen has been MIA for a couple of days, I would expect the colony to immediately start making a queen. Remember they only have 5 - 7 days, and then they have no viable eggs.

I am not sure that I have ever had a queen come through the funnel that I use in the trapping process. If your cone funnel is large enough for the queen to come through, it may also be large enough for bees to return to the feral colony. That would be a close call as to exact size of the cone opening.

With no more viable eggs, and no additional nectar and pollen being brought in, the colony begins to dwindle, and cannot sustain itself. Lack of bees to guard the brood comb, will make it susceptable to small hive beetles, and wax moth larve.

Other than these concerns, you have a logical thought process, and it should work.

Nothing is absolute about bees. Just when you think you have bees all figured out, they do something different. Learn a little from each trapout. Have fun. For me, that is the name of the game.

cchoganjr

[Greg Lowe]

Thank you for sharing your insight Mr. Hogan. Those are very good points. I guess my thoughts were that keeping the queen in what they consider to be another chamber of the hive would satisfy them such that they would not try to raise up another queen.

Thinking through it further, it would probably be best to move her if she is in the first bunch of bees. Then that puts me in the option 2 scenario where I can try to get the E queen in the trap later.

Thank you again!

@CaBees - I was told they have been there at least 3 and maybe 4 years.

[Cleo C. Hogan Jr]

Greg Lowe... If the colony perceives that the queen cannot get back, and she is not laying in the brood nest, they will start supercedure. With the cone installed, even workers, nursebees etc cannot get back. Once you install the funnel, you will begin depleting the colony very rapidly.

I like to take two good big starts before installing the funnel. (Or in my case, closing off the tunnel) (My largest ever was 10 to 12 pounds from the Ridenour trap in 2010) Most starts ever from one trap in one year was 9, locust tree Horse Cave. If you take a second start immediately after moving the first, you likely will not have enough bees left in the feral source, (unless it is hugh), to come out and tend the unsealed brood that you introduce. At that point you will need to add the funnel and trap everything in the trap.

Good Luck.

cchoganjr

[Gypsi]

As a closing note, my long trapout will be a cutout soon. As soon as I have a couple of beeks to help pro-bono, I will pay my crew to install new siding when we are done, and she will pay me when she can to cover the scaffold, materials and crew.

The woman's husband is dying. I did succeed in keeping the bees out of the house, there is a rolled removable caulking at Home Depot that is like children's modeling clay, and gives off no fumes. Stuffed in all of the tiny openings in the wall leading into her den, and rolled out in a bead between brick wall and bookcase, it did the job.

Gypsi

[Beev]

Mr. Hogan,
I installed my trap last Saturday with six medium frames of wax foundation and one frame of drawn comb. I had intended to return in a couple of days with a frame of brood but I had done a couple of splits two weeks prior and my queens had not begun laying again. I checked my hives yesterday and they have begun to lay again so will have some open brood in a day or two. Meanwhile, I checked my trap today, and they have completely drawn out all seven frames and filled them with nectar, and the box was very full of bees. Should I just add my brood frame in the middle and then check for the queen after 24 hours? I could probably add a super if I had to. Thoughts?

[Cleo C. Hogan Jr]

If you have a box full of bees, (depending on what your objective is,) but, I would move them and either put a queen with them, or put a frame with unsealed brood and let them make themselves a queen. Start a new colony.

If they have the trap full of nectar, apparently they are using it for honey stores, not as a brood chamber. I would remove the nectar frames and bees, so as to start the process over and get them to use it as a brood nest, not honey stores. It may be that the brood nest is too far from your trap and the brood nest is split too far. Thus they are storing honey in the trap.

I have never added a super to a trap, but, I guess you could do it, and at some point you would have a tremendous colony. Or you could leave it and harvest the honey from the trap. This might be the first time I have heard of, where you harvest honey from a tree or house using removable frames. Most colonies in trees and houses do not have removable frames.

You could place the nectar filled frames to one side, and place your unsealed brood nearest the tunnel and see if you draw out nurse bees and the queen, but, looks like in this first round they are using it for storage.

I wonder if anyone else has had an experience like this. I can't say that I have.

cchoganjr