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Wanting to get the queen from a trap out. HOW?

58K views 119 replies 28 participants last post by  Tigger19687 
#1 ·
Now that I have found a wild bee colony and bees are excepting the hive body I've set in front of their hive with a queen cell in it, how long will it take the Queen to abscond? I think I have thought of a way to capture her on her exit but need to know when to place my gadget on the trap out.
 
#108 ·
Mr. Hogan,
On average, how long would you think your method would take for a trap-out versus the cone funnel method? It seems that once you get the queen in the trap box and funnel the the other entrance, you are looking at somewhere around 3-4 weeks (assuming you let the brood in the structure hatch out). The cone funnel method could take 6-8 weeks or longer.

Am I close with my timelines?
 
#109 ·
My method will also likely take 6 to 8 weeks for colony elimination.. Keep in mind that there is brood that is hatching daily in the feral colony. Also, during a good honey flow, the feral colony will immediately make themselves a new queen. From there you are looking at 20 plus days for her to start replinishing the colony. But, by that time, you will likely have taken three or four starts, and significantly weakened the hive. As you furthur weaken it, it cannot sustain itself, and the colony will perish.

The cone funnel method will work well on trapouts, I used it for years. The advantage of my improvement is that you have a good chance of getting the queen, and you get a good mix of bees for starts, In the cone funnel method, you first get field bees, then you only get nurse bees, fanners, cleaners, as they leave for cleansing flights and cannot get back to their colony, and take up residence in the trap box nearby.

In my method you immediately get guard bees, fanners, cleaners, nurse bees, etc, because the trap is an integral part of the colony. As soon as you introduce the unsealed brood, you will get a rush of bees, into the trap, with the proper mix to make a start. Traditionally within 24 - 36 hours. Remove the frames, add another unsealed brood and once again you get the mix to make starts because the trap is just another part of their colony. Remove as soon as you have three plus pounds of bees, (3 frames well covered), and you are weakening the feral colony.

Still, it is likely to take 6 to 8 weeks to eliminate the colony.

cchoganjr
 
#110 · (Edited)
I have been chewing on this since I got a call yesterday to remove a hive from inside a tree. They want the bees gone ASAP.

If you would, please look over this thought process and see where my flaws are, I would be very appreciative.

1. Using the Hogan Method, you get lucky and catch the queen in the trap on day 1 or day 2.
2. Then you come back and take away the bees that are there with her (to suplement another hive or to put into a nuc)
3. Add another frame of larvae/brood to the trap
4. Move the queen back into the trap with a cone/funnel over the entrance so she cant go back into the tree and lay

Option 1----------
Now the portion of the colony in the tree would not think they are queenless since their queen is still there in what they perceive to be another part of the hive giving off her phermones.

This being the case, they have no inclination to raise up an E-Queen.

Option 2----------
The portion of the colony in the tree would think they are queenless, since their queen has been MIA for a couple of days.

This being the case, they take action and raise up an E-Queen. The E queen will hatch in 13 days or so, depending upon the age of the larve used to make her. A few days later, she will go on an orientation flight, but when she leaves the tree (through the cone) she can't return. There are now no more eggs that can be used to raise up another queen inside the tree.

=========================================================================
Regardless of what happens inside the tree with E-queen or not, in the next 3 weeks, more bees would be hatching and moving into the trap for the various reasons you have mentioned and the number of bees inside the tree would be diminishing every day. In 3 weeks, there would be no more capped brood inside the tree. It may take them another little while to deplete the stores inside the tree, but they have to eventually come through the funnel to do a cleansing flight.

After 3 weeks, from installing the funnel, there would be no more capped brood inside the tree. At this point you could remove the trap, run a small tube through the cone/funnel and blow a shot of Bee-quick inside the tree. Since there is no more brood inside, many of the remaining bees would exit immediately. Then the opening in the tree can be sealed and the trapout is over. I'm thinking this would be closer to 4 weeks.

I'm sure there is something I have overlooked and if so, it would be good to know.

All of the above plan is of course based upon getting the queen in the first day or 2. If that doesn't happen, then the clock starts ticking when you do catch the queen and get the funnel installed.

Obviously, the queen can be removed from the trapout 6-7 days after the funnel is installed if one were inclined to keep her genetics going. Because at this point, it won't matter if the bees inside the tree think they are queenless as they have no more eggs available for E-queens. Also, if the bees act using option 2, removing the old queen would allow the E-queen when she emerges through the cone to use the trap for laying eggs in after she is bred.
 
#112 ·
Greg Lowe Here are my comments..... Option one.

1. I would think that with the cone funnel installed, and the queen not able to move back into the feral source, the feral source would immediately create queen cells and attempt to make themselves a queen, which they could do it there are viable eggs there. This would especially be true if the trap is some distance from the feral brood nest.

2. Rather than take her, then return her, then take her away again, I would just move her and start a new hive with her genetics.

3. Moving another frame of unsealed brood will just start the trapping process all over, but with a reduced number of bees in the tree. (the ones you moved).

4. I don't see any real value to moving a queen back into the trap, if the entrance is sealed with a cone funnel, or a plastic funnel. The unsealed brood will bring the nurse bees, cleaners, fanners, etc. into the trap. The queen will likely start laying eggs in the trap, but that is not really any more beneficial than just adding the unsealed brood. I'm not sure I would want to cage and release, cage and release a queen. She might just take what bees are available and leave.

I don't think it is just giving off phermones that that will keep the feral colony from starting a queen of their own. Have you ever noticed when you make a split, and you hang the queen, but they don't get her out of the tube. They will start making a queen, even tho she is right their giving off phermones. If she isn't available and laying eggs, they will attempt to supercede her.

Option 2. If a queen has been MIA for a couple of days, I would expect the colony to immediately start making a queen. Remember they only have 5 - 7 days, and then they have no viable eggs.

I am not sure that I have ever had a queen come through the funnel that I use in the trapping process. If your cone funnel is large enough for the queen to come through, it may also be large enough for bees to return to the feral colony. That would be a close call as to exact size of the cone opening.

With no more viable eggs, and no additional nectar and pollen being brought in, the colony begins to dwindle, and cannot sustain itself. Lack of bees to guard the brood comb, will make it susceptable to small hive beetles, and wax moth larve.

Other than these concerns, you have a logical thought process, and it should work.

Nothing is absolute about bees. Just when you think you have bees all figured out, they do something different. Learn a little from each trapout. Have fun. For me, that is the name of the game.

cchoganjr
 
#113 ·
Thank you for sharing your insight Mr. Hogan. Those are very good points. I guess my thoughts were that keeping the queen in what they consider to be another chamber of the hive would satisfy them such that they would not try to raise up another queen.

Thinking through it further, it would probably be best to move her if she is in the first bunch of bees. Then that puts me in the option 2 scenario where I can try to get the E queen in the trap later.

Thank you again!

@CaBees - I was told they have been there at least 3 and maybe 4 years.
 
#114 ·
Greg Lowe... If the colony perceives that the queen cannot get back, and she is not laying in the brood nest, they will start supercedure. With the cone installed, even workers, nursebees etc cannot get back. Once you install the funnel, you will begin depleting the colony very rapidly.

I like to take two good big starts before installing the funnel. (Or in my case, closing off the tunnel) (My largest ever was 10 to 12 pounds from the Ridenour trap in 2010) Most starts ever from one trap in one year was 9, locust tree Horse Cave. If you take a second start immediately after moving the first, you likely will not have enough bees left in the feral source, (unless it is hugh), to come out and tend the unsealed brood that you introduce. At that point you will need to add the funnel and trap everything in the trap.

Good Luck.

cchoganjr
 
#115 ·
As a closing note, my long trapout will be a cutout soon. As soon as I have a couple of beeks to help pro-bono, I will pay my crew to install new siding when we are done, and she will pay me when she can to cover the scaffold, materials and crew.

The woman's husband is dying. I did succeed in keeping the bees out of the house, there is a rolled removable caulking at Home Depot that is like children's modeling clay, and gives off no fumes. Stuffed in all of the tiny openings in the wall leading into her den, and rolled out in a bead between brick wall and bookcase, it did the job.

Gypsi
 
#116 ·
Mr. Hogan,
I installed my trap last Saturday with six medium frames of wax foundation and one frame of drawn comb. I had intended to return in a couple of days with a frame of brood but I had done a couple of splits two weeks prior and my queens had not begun laying again. I checked my hives yesterday and they have begun to lay again so will have some open brood in a day or two. Meanwhile, I checked my trap today, and they have completely drawn out all seven frames and filled them with nectar, and the box was very full of bees. Should I just add my brood frame in the middle and then check for the queen after 24 hours? I could probably add a super if I had to. Thoughts?
 
#117 · (Edited)
If you have a box full of bees, (depending on what your objective is,) but, I would move them and either put a queen with them, or put a frame with unsealed brood and let them make themselves a queen. Start a new colony.

If they have the trap full of nectar, apparently they are using it for honey stores, not as a brood chamber. I would remove the nectar frames and bees, so as to start the process over and get them to use it as a brood nest, not honey stores. It may be that the brood nest is too far from your trap and the brood nest is split too far. Thus they are storing honey in the trap.

I have never added a super to a trap, but, I guess you could do it, and at some point you would have a tremendous colony. Or you could leave it and harvest the honey from the trap. This might be the first time I have heard of, where you harvest honey from a tree or house using removable frames. Most colonies in trees and houses do not have removable frames.

You could place the nectar filled frames to one side, and place your unsealed brood nearest the tunnel and see if you draw out nurse bees and the queen, but, looks like in this first round they are using it for storage.

I wonder if anyone else has had an experience like this. I can't say that I have.

cchoganjr
 
#118 ·
Cleo,

thanks for the email today. 6 Years later and this post is still helping people. My dad and I are starting to "Recover" bees from less desirable locations, and establishing them in our bee boxes. This method will be a great help to us, being that we have 2 swarms in 2 different steel tanker trailers that were used for road surface oil. We can not cut into the tanks as tar is flammable. We will construct this method and see how things work out.

Thanks again

Al Supak
 
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