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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
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    Pikeville, Tennessee
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    64

    Question Wanting to get the queen from a trap out. HOW?

    Now that I have found a wild bee colony and bees are excepting the hive body I've set in front of their hive with a queen cell in it, how long will it take the Queen to abscond? I think I have thought of a way to capture her on her exit but need to know when to place my gadget on the trap out.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Cleveland, Oh
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    98

    Default Re: Wanting to get the queen from a trap out. HOW?

    I have a trap-out that is just starting to wind down now (Cone placed July 20th. Currently only 2-3 bees exiting per hour). If the queen shuts down laying fairly quickly (say, within a week), it'll still take 3-4 weeks before all the brood/eggs hatch out.

    Originally, I had planned on placing a large mesh box over the trap-out exit and work a nuc entrance with a feeder into the side of the box somehow. Logistically, this isn't feasible, I would need to check on them nearly daily. While the location isn't very far away, this isn't something I am willing/able to do at this time.

    Instead, I decided to roll the dice on catching the absconding swarm with four nuc boxes baited with swarm lure in various places around the trap-out. With luck, the queen will take up residence in one of these. If you have frames of drawn comb to add to these swarm trap boxes (I don't) this will help as well.

    Good luck in catching her.

    Sincerely,
    Paul E. Turley

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    moravia,ny
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    1,223

    Default Re: Wanting to get the queen from a trap out. HOW?

    the queen will not leave her brood. she must manualy be removed. I have never heard of a way to lure her out. good luck

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Tulsa OK. USA
    Posts
    846

    Default Re: Wanting to get the queen from a trap out. HOW?

    The queen stops laying eggs when foragers fail to return with stores, once the brood has hatched out the queen often absconds the hive with the last bit of bees to find a better home. Now just when that happens varies from trap out to trap out. A trap out during a flow may see the queen leave in 5-6 weeks due to the amount of brood, but a trap out during a dearth with a small brood area and you may see the queen leave in the first few weeks. Some keepers use swarm traps to attempt to catch the queen. Jim
    Stop and smell the flowers, 50,000 ladies can't be wrong
    Bsweetapiary@aol.com

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Park City Ky
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    1,898

    Default Re: Wanting to get the queen from a trap out. HOW?

    beeware.... The myth that you cannot get the queen with a trap is just not true. I trap several colonies each year and get the queen on virtuall every one of them. If I only want starts, I put her back in the feral source. If I want to eliminate the colony I move the trap with the queen in it.

    Go to the Kelly Bee Company Website and read about the Swarm Harvester. If you don't understand how the system works, contact me at cchoganjr@scrtc and I will send you instructions and photos of actual bee traps in progress.

    No charge for this information and service to beekeepers.

    Will work every time.

    cchoganjr

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Posts
    1,313

    Default Re: Wanting to get the queen from a trap out. HOW?

    I went to Kelley's website and looked at it. Yes, please explain how it works. Someone wrote a negative review on the Kelley website because they could not understand how it works, so maybe you ought to write an explanation for them too.

    When did my first few trapouts, I would have sworn there is no way to get the queen, but I now agree with you. This year I did 2 trapouts and I got the queen in both cases.

    I think it has to do with the brood. If there is brood there, the queen would rather die than leave it, but if there is little to no brood, the hive will abscond within the first couple weeks of no food and water coming in. The queen will leave with all the bees in a swarm.

    The thing newbies need to keep in mind is that she may still be pretty fat and not able to fly well, so the trapout should allow her to walk out and into the trap without having to fly.
    Troy

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Park City Ky
    Posts
    1,898

    Default Re: Wanting to get the queen from a trap out. HOW?

    Troy... If you or anyone else needs information on the bee trap, send me an e-mail at cchoganjr@scrtc.com and I will send you the information.

    No doubt it is the introduction of the frame of brood which brings the queen out of the feral source and into the trap. I have used this trap system for more than 20 years, and prior to learning about putting a frame of unsealed brood in the trap, the bees mostly used my traps for storage, and general buildup of the hive. Just on a whim, one day I put a frame of brood in the trap one day and I found the queen in the trap the first day, Once she sees the brood, she assumes that the trap is just another place for her to lay eggs and she will go back and forth between the feral source and the trap.

    The only difference between the trap and the cone funnel method, is, using the cone you deplete the hive, by bees leaving the feral source and cannot get back in. It is highly, highly, unlikely that the queen will come out. Honey gets depleted, bees that leave for cleansing flights cannot get back in and the hive is depleted. The cone funnel method is a true and tested method and will work, it just doesn't have much success with getting the queen. Initially about all you get is field bees, then as the funnel is left in place you get cleaners, brood tenders, fanners, etc, as they exit for cleansing flights, or just to cool for a while, and then cannot get back in.

    In the trap method, the bees move back and forth at will, The trap is sealed to the feral source with the two transitions, and becomes an integral part of the hive. The introduction of the unsealed brood, and brood comb causes the queen to investigate, who is laying eggs in her house, and when she finds no other queen it becomes a place to lay in the trap, and then move back to the feral source. As other frames in the trap are drawn out, the queen will return and lay eggs again.

    I gave the material, and a trap, to Kelly a couple or three of years ago. I do not, and never have, received anything on the sale of the Kelly Swarm Harvester. I gave it to them so beekeepers would have another way to trap out bees. I had no desire to manufacture the swarm traps for sale, and Kelly did. So I gave them the data and a trap to copy. I have received numerous comments where people are very happy with the trap,and that is what I wanted. I have also received some comments that people needed additional information. The trap will work if you can seal all the entrances except one, and works best if you can place the trap very near the feral source brood nest. It is easy in trees and tanks, more difficult in houses, but will work. I trap multiple trees each year, give the farmer a half gallon honey, and take three to five starts out of each tree, then quit trapping so it can build back for winter.

    If anyone has any questions, or if I can help you in any way, e-mail me at the address above. cchoganjr

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
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    KC, MO, USA
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    1,215

    Default Re: Wanting to get the queen from a trap out. HOW?

    So it is basically a 5 frame nuke with an opening on the back that you seal to the feral hive entrance. put brood in it and they treat it like part of their hive.

    If the queen moves back and forth. How do you get her, luck, timing?
    I am guessing you add brood with no nurse bees?
    How long does it take to fill up the box?


    I do like the idea that you just harvest some of the hive then go back for some more without harming the feral hive.
    I bet you could treat it like a honey super if you don’t add brood and don’t want the bees for whatever reason.

    Cleo you might want to post on Kelley’s web site with basic instructions. Might help them sell a few more. Which can only help the feral hives.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
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    Park City Ky
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    Default Re: Wanting to get the queen from a trap out. HOW?

    Flower Planter... Yes it is any size box,(Nuc, 8 frame, 10 frame) with any way to mate the trap to the feral source, and close off all entrances except the one you want them to go through. You can do it with two wooden tunnels, one that will slide inside the other, with two pipes, one that will slide inside the other, or any other way to attach them. With everything sealed, the trap becomes just another chamber for the bees to live, reproduce, and store honey in.

    Yes, actually it is luck, as to getting the queen. However, when I have a trap in progress, and I introduce the unsealed brood (NO BEES on the frame) I normally find the queen on this or adjacent frames in the first 24 hours. It is not uncommon to get 6 to 10 pounds of bees on your first trapping in 24 hours, if, the feral source is a good colony. Once you introduce the brood, you get the mix of bees that you need to start a new hive, as cleaners, housekeepers, nurse bees, additional guard bees, fanners, etc will move out into the box to tend the brood, protect the brood, and prepare for more area to lay eggs and store honey/pollen Keep in mind, if you remove 8 pounds of bees, and you do not want to kill the colony, you will need to let it build back up, before taking the next start, unless it is a very large colony.

    (To fill the box, or get enough to start a new colony), First trapping, normally, no more than 48 hours to get 5 to 10 pounds of bees in your trap. After that, it depends on size of the feral colony, and how fast they rebuild. I like to wait 3 to 4 weeks between taking the 2d start. If it takes more than 48 hours to get a minimum of 3 pounds of bees, it tells you the feral colony has been weakened, and you may need to allow it time to build back before taking those bees away. If you are wanting to eliminate the colony, just as soon as you have 3 pounds, take it and futher weaken the feral source, and start your new colony.

    I trap several trees each year, and yes it an unlimited source, as long as you don't weaken the source and kill it. Yes, if you only put foundation, or foundationless frames in the trap, the bees will normally treat it as a place to store surplus honey, and will likely place honey in all the frames. In this case, about all you get, as far as a mix of bees, is guard bees who move out to the front of the trap as soon as all entrances are sealed, housekeepers who start cleaning the trap and frames, and fanners who ventilate the hive. To get the mix of bees you need to start a new hive, you really need the frame of brood. Short of adding the frame of brood, the queen and nurse bees etc, will only move out into the trap, if, they are pushed for space, and they start treating the trap as part of her brood nest.

    I haven't checked the Kelly web site, but will. As I have stated before, I DO NOT and NEVER HAVE received anything from Kelly on the sale of the Swarm Harvester. I gave them the idea, and the plans, two or three years ago, just to help beekeepers. I did not want to get into producing and selling traps, and Kelly did.

    If I can help anyone , let me know.

    cchoganjr

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Danbury, CT
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    2,887

    Default Re: Wanting to get the queen from a trap out. HOW?

    A trick that sometimes work is to put frames of open brood and larva in your bait hive and set up the bait hive so that the bees leaving the tree must pass through it. The nurse bees in the feral colony will smell the brood and come out to cover it, often the queen will come out with them to try and find the invading queen.
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    KC, MO, USA
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    1,215

    Default Re: Wanting to get the queen from a trap out. HOW?

    " I haven't checked the Kelly web site, but will. As I have stated before, I DO NOT and NEVER HAVE received anything from Kelly on the sale of the Swarm Harvester. I gave them the idea, and the plans, two or three years ago, just to help beekeepers. I did not want to get into producing and selling traps, and Kelly did. "

    You should, it is an asome idea and more people should know about it, and how it works.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
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    Park City Ky
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    Default Re: Wanting to get the queen from a trap out. HOW?

    bluegrass.... that is the essence of the process. You are exactly right.

    cchoganjr

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
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    Danbury, CT
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    Default Re: Wanting to get the queen from a trap out. HOW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cleo C. Hogan Jr View Post
    bluegrass.... that is the essence of the process. You are exactly right.

    cchoganjr
    I think we are revealing all the secrets that separate the beekeepers from the beehavers. I can't even remember who taught me that trick, but I have used it several times with good results. If she can smell the foreign brood she will come out to investigate. Then you just gotta keep her from going back in.
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    May 2011
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    Livermore, CA
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    1,403

    Default Re: Wanting to get the queen from a trap out. HOW?

    Thanks for the insight on this method!! I have just the tree for this!! And this colony is a true survival colony. It was sprayed by a friend of mine BEFORE he called me. It appeared to have died off when I checked it, no activity. While working the other day I drove by the tree and got out to check it out and show a co-worker, well wouldnt you know..........BEES!! I am going to offer a trap out as the neighborhood (primarily my buddy) wants the bees gone............I get the bees, and the bee's get to prosper without being exterminated!! Will have to give it a go in a couple months when things warm up!! That is, if he doesnt spray them again!!
    Coyote Creek Bees

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Louisville Kentucky USA
    Posts
    458

    Default Re: Wanting to get the queen from a trap out. HOW?

    I was lucky to catch Cleo at one of Kelly companies field days and watch his presentation a couple of years ago. During the presentation he mentioned several times that you could build your own trap very easily or if you dont do woodwork that Kelley had them for sale.I thought it was very cool of him to suggest that you build your own before he mentioned that you could buy one. I had already made my own and had been using it for a couple of years prior to seeing him. But the coolest thing about Cleo was that at the end of his presentation he gave everybody his phone number and said if you have any questions,just give him a call. Not a lot of guys out there that would open themselves up for that much access. I've called him a couple of times with questions and he has always been great to talk to. He's the real deal and if he says its true I believe him.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Orlando, FL
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    1,313

    Default Re: Wanting to get the queen from a trap out. HOW?

    OK, that makes sense why in my trapouts this year I caught the queen. I had put brood in the Nuc so they'd have something to make their own queen from - assuming the trap would not catch the queen.

    She smelled it and came looking, and I caught her. Now that I know the trick I will use it more often. I stumbled on it by accident too, i just did not recognize the cause and effect like Mr. Hogan did.

    Assuming you want to catch the queen. (I do) What about using something along the lines of a triangle escape with queen excluder material in the center instead of 8 mesh. This would allow the workers to come and go and once the queen walks out she is trapped. Then once the queen is in the new box, and the brood is hatched out I could change the triangle board for a screen cone and trap out all the bees too.
    Troy

  17. #17
    Join Date
    May 2011
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    Livermore, CA
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    Default Re: Wanting to get the queen from a trap out. HOW?

    I have some questions...........if I set a trap and put a frame of brood in it, and it draws the queen out.......how much time do you think it takes for the queen to actually go into the trap?

    And like Troy said, how do you keep the queen in?

    If you get the queen..........will the brood bees move out of the cavity into the trap as well? What are the odds of the remaining brood bees making another queen?

    I was asked to remove a large hive of bees from a sycamore tree by a pumpkin patch and would like to do a full trap out and then screen the entrance of the tree to prevent future swarms from moving in, would this be a good idea?

    Sorry for all the questions, ive never done a trap out and would like to hear peoples experiences! Thanks!..............Jason
    Coyote Creek Bees

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
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    Park City Ky
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    Default Re: Wanting to get the queen from a trap out. HOW?

    troy...I don't see why that would not work. Would be worth a try. Any way to get her out into the trap (the unsealed brood) then something (I use that small red funnel, it is a bee escape that goes in inner covers below honey supers) so she cannot get back to the feral colony.

    Bee Ghost.. I normally find the queen there within 24 hours. With a good feral colony, it is not uncommon to get 6 to 10 lbs of bees, and the queen within 24-36 hours of placing the frame of unsealed brood in the trap. With the unsealed brood, she will likely stay there for a day or so, and lay in any remaining cells in the brood comb, then she will go back and forth to the feral colony. After that you just have to check occassionally and find her in the trap laying eggs. When you find her, close off the end of the tunnel (transition inside the trap) The trap has a small red funnel, (it is a bee escape, sold by Kelly, Dadant, Maxant, for about 5 for $2.00. They go in inner covers before harvesting honey. Once you close the end of the tunnel off, ALL bees must come out from the feral colony and go through the small red funnel to get into the trap and to get outside. When they return, they find they cannot get back through the funnel, and they stay in the trap. If they are field bees, and they cannot get back to the feral colony, they deposit pollen/nectar in the cells in the comb in the trap. Next trip, since they left from the trap, and deposited pollen/nectar in the trap, they don't even try to get back to the feral colony. Now the trap is their home. As more bees come through the funnel, (field bees, cleansing flights, rest, etc. the trap population builds. As the trap population builds, the feral source is depleted, and dies.

    During a strong honey flow, the feral colony left in the tree, may make themselves a new queen, ( if there is a viable egg back there) but it will be in vain, as there are fewer and fewer workers, cleaners, nurse bees etc to sustain the feral colony. The honey also gets depleted, as no more nectar is being brought in, and no honey is being made. All the bees come into the trap through the red funnel and the feral colony is no more.

    Trees are easiest to trap, because you can place the transitions very near the feral colony brood nest. The queen has less length to traverse. Houses and old buildings are more difficult, because typically, the brood nest is not where the entrance is, and it is more difficult to seal off all the entrances/exits. If the entrance is several feet from the brood nest, the queen might not come that far to investigate the unsealed brood. If you can seal all entrances, and unless the brood nest is several feet from the entrance, the queen will come into the trap looking for another queen. Who is laying eggs in my house,

    Odds are good during a honey flow that the feral colony will make a new queen. All they need is a viable egg. But, as field bees, cleaners, nurse bees, fanners, etc, come through the funnel and get trapped inside the trap, the population inside the feral colony decreases and it cannot sustain itself.

    If you have a problem, or questions, you can contact me at cchoganjr@scrtc.com and I will do my best to help you.

    cchoganjr

  19. #19
    Join Date
    May 2011
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    Default Re: Wanting to get the queen from a trap out. HOW?

    Cleo,

    Thank you very much for your response, very good information there!! I am going to convert one of my deeps into a trap with a removable solid board (i like SBB and will transfer it onto one when the trap is removed) and a migratory cover. The basic concept if I am right is to funnel the bees into the trap, of course getting the trap as close to the cavity as possible, right? Then the bee's go through the tunnel and into the back of the box and procede out the entrance. I will check out the trap design on the website mentioned. Thanks again!!..............Jason
    Coyote Creek Bees

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Lincolnton, NC
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    1,115

    Default Re: Wanting to get the queen from a trap out. HOW?

    When the deep super is first attached to the transition piece, it seems like the returning foragers would try to enter near the back of the deep super instead of the front where the entrance now is. Is that not a problem? How long does it take for them to figure it out?

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