Testing pollen sub

[David LaFerney]

Alright, last winter I tested another brand and was impressed with how strong my hives were in the spring. - where can I get some nutra-bee to "test" this year?

Does it also ship in the form of straight pollen sub- add your own sugar?

Still on subject right?

[heaflaw]

Brushy Mtn is selling what they describe as their own patties that they say is "much better" than the MegaBee. Any idea if it really is?

[Keith Jarrett]

Any idea if it really is?

Heaflaw, the first step is to ask them what is there protein & fat level of there patty, then go from there, it's a good starting point.

[jim lyon]

The way I look at it (and I was only partly joking in my previous post) sure it's an amino acid and for those of you who want to get into the science of bee nutrition these are all crucial elements to a good bee supplement. But you really don't need to know all this stuff to be a good beekeeper any more than you have to understand the workings of a diesel engine to be a good truck driver. The great thing is that there are a lot of very bright people who spend a lot of time studying this stuff and the result is that the supplement business has a lot of great products out there with proven track records. Keith is one of them and from all the info I have gleaned no one is doing it any better and at a more reasonable price (some folks are good at spelling others at making supplements). He is a bit secretive on his exact formulation and why shouldnt he be, he has spent a lot of time and effort formulating it and has the results to prove it. So my suggestion is try some of his and try some of the other stuff, compare price and performance, see how it works for you and don't spend a lot of time worrying about Lisine errrr Lysine or anything else that might be in it for that matter.

[BEES4U]

Re: caratenoid.
Hint: What makes a pumpkin yellow orange.

[BEES4U]

FYI:
This little snip was taken out of a Dr. of Veterinary Sciences explanation on Crude protein vs Digestible Protein.
Please make note of this accurate explanation.
Total Protein vs. Digestible Protein

The pet food label provides an estimate of a food’s crude protein content on its guaranteed analysis panel. This measure reflects only the total amount of protein and does not indicate differences in protein digestibility between high and low quality protein sources. For example:

Dog Food A contains 21 percent crude protein and is 86.0 % digestible.

Dog Food B contains 23 percent crude protein and is 76.0 % digestible.

Food A: 21g protein/100g diet x 0.86 = 18.1g protein absorbed

Food B: 23g protein/100g diet x 0.76 = 17.5g protein absorbed

Although the crude protein value reported for Dog Food A is lower than that for Dog Food B, Dog Food A’s higher digestibility results in more protein being available to the dog, in a given volume of food.
Here's the URL to give credit to the author;
http://ccspca.webs.com/apps/blog/ent...d-palatability

[Keith Jarrett]

Well said Ernie, My dad was a Veterinary & show me alot of pointers on the Digestible side of things.

So, since the topic is "testing pollen sub" why don't we elect a person here on beesource to do just that. We will send this third party person, different types of sub and they can do a field trial?

[michael-bees]

Well said Ernie, My dad was a Veterinary & show me alot of pointers on the Digestible side of things.

So, since the topic is "testing pollen sub" why don't we elect a person here on beesource to do just that. We will send this third party person, different types of sub and they can do a field trial?

Send em all to me I'll test em.

[Thermwood]

Ready to test here in northern Nevada

[G B]

Keith one of my commercial buddies has wanted to compare your sub to his own receipe. He is just sure you cant make quality sub and sell it for the price that you do. I have to come pick some up this fall anyway. How could a test be set up to compare the two subs? Any ideas? frame count ?weight ? any ideas? thanks George B

[Keith Jarrett]

Maybe Sheri could help here, really need to be third party, Jim L comes to mind or somebody 100% third party.

[jim lyon]

Well Keith I would be happy to do some testing, I have never really "cast my lot" with any particular product, we have made our own and used most of the other products that you see advertised, for me it's always been more about price and availability. My problems and concerns are that we do our pollen sub feeding in east Texas December through January and we are there only a relatively short time to do our work, also the logistics of getting the different products there might be a bit of a problem, perhaps a California site would be better? The other thing is for it to be done properly and fairly requires that it be done quite meticulously as far as controlling all the variables and accurately recording the results. I am more of a "slap em on and get er done" kind of guy. While I have no doubt that I could look at the results and have a pretty good idea what had performed the best I am not sure that a "seat of the pants assessment" would be fair to all the products involved. My thinking is that I would be willing to furnish the bees and pay for the various products as they would benefit my bees but I think we might need someone with more of an "academic bent" ideally someone with at least some scientific background to do all the actual measuring and recording. So there ya go hows that for a non-answer?

[JohnK and Sheri]

My first thought is "Yeah, what Jim said". I will run the idea of this for the California bees by John and Matt, but they are sorta "slap em on and get er done" too. The first trip they basically slap the feed and patties to them, without a lot of time spent evening them out. The finer tuning is done in early January. Because they aren't all starting out even, it would be tough to measure a difference any particular sub makes.
Not sure how many products are being talked about here but I suppose several semi drops would each have the different kinds of patties represented and to minimize drift being much of a factor, the sub would have to be distributed randomly throughout the drop making keeping track just that much more difficult. Not sure the guys would want to take this on but it would be an interesting experiment.
Sheri

[swarm_trapper]

i wouldn't mind doing it but its harder to tell the results in Fl, as we dont have much of a pollen dearth. i could do a test on which the beetles prefer lol

[heaflaw]

Heaflaw, the first step is to ask them what is there protein & fat level of there patty, then go from there, it's a good starting point.

Here's a copy of the ingredients sheet:

Brushy Mountain Premium Pollen Patties
(High protein pollen substitute patties with vitamins, antioxidants and trace minerals, and infused with a feeding
stimulate composed of lemongrass and spearmint essential oil concentrate.)
Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein, minimum…..12% Crude Fat, minimum…..8%
Contains no natural pollen-Contains no animal by products
For oral honey bee use only Not for human use Keep out of the reach of children
Feeding directions: No need to remove paper, place one patty on the top bars of each colony. Replace as
needed. Do not feed when honey supers are present.
Ingredients: Plant Protein Products, High Fructose Corn Syrup, Sugar, High Oleic Canola Oil With Dimethylpolysiloxaneian (Anti Foaming Agent), Partially
Hydrogenated Soybean Oil, Partially Hydrogenated Psalm Oil With Mono & Diglycerides Added, Lemongrass Oil, Spearmint Oil, Lecithin, Sodium Lauryl Sulfate,
Water, Wheat Flour, Calcium Sulfate, Salt, L-Cysteine, Fungal Protase, Amylase, Sorbic Acid, Potassium Chloride, Soodium Chloride, Niacinamide, Viitamin E
Supplement, Ascorbic Acid Stabilized, Sodium Citrate, D-Calcium Pantotheniic Acid, Vitamin A Suppplenment, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Mendadione Sodium
Bisulfite Coplex, Rivoflavin, Botin Supplement, Vitimin b12 Supplenment, Pyridoxine HCI, Thiamine HCI, Magnesium Sulfate, Folic Acid, Ferrous Sulfate, Copper
Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Cobalt Sulfate, Calcium Lactate, Potassium Sulfate, Magnesium Carbonate, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide.

Is this good or not?

[Keith Jarrett]

Is this good or not?

Here's what I can say, protein should be 17-25% range & fat 5-8% range. After that, look at soluble parts of your sub, are all the parts soluble in the mid gut of the bee? I know, these are tough to answer.

[Keith Jarrett]

[QUOTE=heaflaw;703684]Brushy Mountain Premium Pollen Patties
High protein pollen substitute patties Crude Protein, minimum…..12% QUOTE]

I suppose the word "premium" means different things to different folks.

12% and premium just don't go together.

[Johnny]

Re: caratenoid.
Hint: What makes a pumpkin yellow orange.

Hey Ernie, Ya I was able to gather that, I guess I should of asked if bees will eat carrots and spinach? Or is that where we can get some "soluble" fats. Or better yet where do you guys get your fats and protein from?

That being said I think I gave up on making my own sub. It's messy, cant get it right (to runny or to hard) plus god only knows what my protein and fat % is at. havent really made a nice batch to send in to lab.

Keith did you clone yourself??? How do you have time to run a 3000 hive operation and make sub for us?? I give up help! When you heading up this way with a load its about that time for me.

John

[honeyshack]

I have a question to ask about pollen feeding. Please understand i am coming at this from a cattle person's prespective.
During certain times of the year, cattle needs are greater or less. Last trimester of pregnancy is the highest point on the cattle food tdn to ensure quality colostrum at calving, keeping condition during the winter, the calf grows the most, and ensuring a good start to post calving conditioning. The next greater need is post calving to ensure the quality and quantity of milk, keeping condition and breed back in a timely fashion. Late cows do not produce as good as calf. During the summer months, grazing is keeping and gaining condition on pasture, and feeding two plus themselves (known as a three in one). Because it is pasture, here is where you want them to put on extra condition because it is not as costly as hay...free sort of. Finally the second trimester of pregnancy is where the needs are the least. The calf has been weaned, condition should have been gained on pasture, and the unborn calfs needs are at the lowest here. Here is the maintenance round.

There is a point please bear with me.

At any one time, nutrition guaged by TDN should be a certain amount. In the second tri for example a cow receiving 12% with majority as high TDN is on a bit of the high end. They will not lose condtion...based on TDN, and will more than likely gain a bit weather permitting. Come the last tri, 14 or so should do it.

Now, if one fed the cow 14% in the second tri, two things will happen. One the cow will over condition, resulting in the opposite of a healthy calf, good colostrum etc and good bred back. Failure will result. Add to it problems calving due to too fat. The second is, it will go out the back end.

One final tibbit here, a heifer weaned to breed time, if she is not fed a good ration, she will not perform in the breeding herd, she will be small, her calves small and by the second calf,if she bred back, will be a cull for this reason. That said, a heifer of the same age, fed to hot, will over condtion, put the flesh on herself, gain a huge bag which is fatty reducing milk production, calf wean weight % to the weight of the cow. In essence she will put the groceries on herself instead of a calf. And by the fourth year of breeding be a culled animal because she is not a good converter of feed to calf wean weight...scientific i know. The same for a cow who is fed too hot of a ration later in life. She will fall prey to this problem as well, tossing out any good genetics with her.

My thought is....Let me be up front, I feed pollen spring and fall and in the summer with hives that need it, especially in poor weather growing conditions. However, i also believe if they can not cut the mustard on good quality foraged pollen, maybe they need to grow wheels ( cow term for culling).

My point, like cows, is there a time when the protien needs are not as high, and we are feeding and over conditioning the bees, and them crapping it out the back end what their bodies do not use? Like cows, $ in the dung because we feed to hot. Which in turn means $ not wisely spent. OR, are we over conditioning them by feeding a feed which is too hot at certain times of the year?
Too add to the questions, will to hot of a ration be hard on the hive, especially at certain times of the year? Are there times in a year where their needs are lower, reducing the protien % woudl be good?

See there was a point to the cows story....

[Keith Jarrett]

Folks that will be buying or making there own sub really should take the time to read Ernie's post #26, he explaines why not all ingredents are created equal. Ernie, that was an impressive post.