Nothing but trouble.

**twgreen3** · 07-08-2011, 05:13 PM

I have a new hive that I started from a package this year that has been nothing but trouble. It started when the bees decided that they needed to replace what seemed like a perfect queen, I let let the bees do their thing and they replaced here. I saw the new queen on an inspection and some spotty brood but nothing to write home about. Today I went back and found some larva that looks to be about a day or so old but not a single egg. There are the makings of queen cells on almost every frame and 2 capped cells. At this point of the year I am not sure if I should just call my losses, let them make another attempt at it, or try to find an queen.
So my question is what would you do? And if there are any beeks in S.E. Michigan where can I pick up a queen local if that is what I decided to do? I don't want to spend $60 to have one shipped to me, for some reason that just seems ridiculous. I am sure that there are cheaper but that is the first I priced. Thanks for your help.

**fish_stix** · 07-08-2011, 06:27 PM

If they've started cells don't waste your money on a new queen, they'll just kill her. Let them raise another queen and see how she does. If she's not a good one then buy a new queen but don't kill the old one until you have the new one in your hands. Kill the old queen and wait an hour or so and introduce the new one in the cage with the cork pulled on the candy end. It's far easier to introduce a new queen to a queenright hive, after you kill the old one of course, than to fight and lose the battle when they've started raising their own.

**Rick 1456** · 07-09-2011, 05:02 AM

Interesting that they would supercede her so fast but, they have their reasons. I took three frames brood with a lot of bees and eggs and made a nu from my friends hive. They produced 5 queen cells and eventually a mated, laying queen. I marked her as is my practice. After two weeks, they queen cells with larvae. I've learned when the bees choose a route like this to let them go. Nothing you do, IMO, will change their minds aside from extreme intervention and to what end. Having said that, I remembered a talk on Youtube by Michael Bush on queen rearing. "You can have the best genetics, but if you do not have a strong hive to make the queen, you will likely get a poor quality queen" Paraphrasing of course. That is what I think happened to my nuc and maybe a possiblity for your hive and what they are doing.
Hope this helps

**MDS** · 07-09-2011, 06:35 AM

If I have a queen issue in a hive I make sure and keep eggs and brood in various stages to help suppressing laying workers and gives them resources to make a new queen. I never cut out supercedure cells and do move swarm cells to nucs for splits. A capped queen cell is the next best thing to purchasing a mated queen.

When they have already built queen cells, even in the near past, which have emerged then I assume there is at least a virgin queen and they will kill the queen you buy and place in the hive. Be extra careful on waiting period to release a caged queen if you go that route. If you put the cage on top of the frames and they immediately ball the cage you probably have a queen in the hive. If they turn their butts up and start fanning then that is a good sign there is no queen, or at least a very weak one, in the hive.

It's hard to do but you have to leave the hive alone for a couple of weeks in between inspections so as not to damage queen cells or queens. The first time you see eggs, leave it alone and watch the entrance for bees numbers, or maybe just pop the top only.

You can move nurse bees in from another hive which will help. Feed if you have to.

Of course make sure there are not other problems in terms of pests and disease.

In Missouri where I live there is plenty of time for the hive to recover, in fact lots of folks do splits after the honey flow. I believe you are still in a honey flow in Michigan where my brother-in-law is also a beekeeper. I'm not sure if he does late summer splits or attempts to mate queens that late.

PS, call Long Lane Honey Bee Farms http://www.honeybeesonline.com/ and ask for advice and maybe try one of their northern queens when you buy your next one.

Good luck

**alpha6** · 07-09-2011, 07:22 AM

I think it was in BJ that I read about a study where the failure rate for queen acceptance in packages about 75% where as with nucs it is only about 25%...I would go with nucs in the future if I were you. I am thinking that 25% is with the intro of the queens, so by the time the customer gets it, there should already be a laying accepted queen.

**twgreen3** · 07-09-2011, 05:09 PM

Thanks for all the good advice, I am waiting on a reply from Long Lane before I make my final decision but I think I will just let them be. It is funny you mention that MDS one of my two packages came from Long Lane this year. I priced one of their queens but shipping is just to expensive, I hope to get one with my 5 new packages next year.

**roaddog** · 07-09-2011, 07:29 PM

all my hives have been from packages first few months i cut loads of capped queen cells till the hive gets stronger then it quits seems like the bees jump to blame the queen to fast .

**TIMER** · 07-09-2011, 08:48 PM

I had no luck with packages this year. Only 1 out of six made it.
I'll be adding a bought nuc to the fifth one this Friday to try and save it.
Very disappointing

On the flip side, I have five hives that were 3 frame nucs middle of May
and are now two full deeps and two med supers

I'm getting ten nucs this Friday and could sell you one to toss on top and see what happens

**geebob** · 07-09-2011, 09:11 PM

I have a hive that is in the same boat. I think the problem for both of us might have been that the weather was so rotten when our queens were superseded that they didn't have a chance to mate very well. I'm going to break mine down into two or three nucs with new queens.

TIMER: I guess I feel better about my packages batting .500 this year! Any thought of breaking your failing hive into nucs are requeening?

**twgreen3** · 07-09-2011, 09:19 PM

Never really thought about that. I could put some in my nuke and let them have a go at it. I suppose it doubles my odds of getting a good queen

**geebob** · 07-09-2011, 09:25 PM

That was my feeling too, twgreen3. Do you have a strong hive that you can get a frame of open brood from? I'm not sure I'd be too keen on passing on the current genetics of your failing hive. Could be just bad luck, but it could also be bad genes.