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Foundationless!

7K views 41 replies 20 participants last post by  Desert Viking Ranch 
#1 ·
Will bees draw comb faster with or without foundation?

100% natural wax or waxed plastic?

Just thinking about going foundationless.
 
#4 · (Edited)
I think foundationless is faster. I would just give it a try to make your own opinion. just make sure your hive is level and stick in a frame with a guide stick between two drawn brood frames. My guess is once you get the hang of it you wont go back. They may build a little drone comb but I just move it to the super's or to the outer frames.
 
#5 ·
Foundationless, for me, has almost always been fastest. But in our heat I wish I'd always have horizontally wired every single frame that didn't have plastic foundation. The wires don't slow the bees down, at all, but they don't always fasten the combs to the bottom bar, at least not right away, and those they don't fasten are at risk of collapse if they aren't supported by the horizontal wires.
 
#6 ·
but they don't always fasten the combs to the bottom bar, at least not right away,
I have noticed this also. It was in my bottom box, so I added a slatted rack in hopes that lifting them a little from the entrance might help. I just added my second brood box, so it will be interesting to see if they do any differently in that one.

Do you think that they will eventually connect all the combs to the bottom bar?
 
#11 ·
I am absolutely new at this (but obsessive!) Getting our first nuc tomorrow at 8 AM...Right now I am trying to build a box of foundationless frames after coming under the sway of Michael Bush (who you, K.E.N. should look at here
Do these look correct?


I cut the wax 1 3/4 as a starter strip and then jammed a popsicle stick in the groove to keep them tight.
My only concern is they seem kind of loose. Should I try to wire or bobby pin the strips in place?


My nuc is medium frames (I have all 8 frame medium equipment) and will presumably be started with foundation. My thought is though to go with all foundationless on either side of the five(?) frames of the nuc as well as in the second hive body...I would love any advice.
Thanks. Nico
 
#12 ·
Nico108,

Too wide a piece of foundation and way too loose. You don't need both foundation starter strips and popsicle stick (tongue depressor) comb guides.

The bees will festoon from the edge of the foundation starter strip and pull it right out.

You should either make your foundation strips narrower and beeswax them firmly into place, or glue the wooden strips firmly into place, not both.
 
#13 ·
So it should be a smaller piece of foundation? Or if the popsicle stick then should I just woodglue it in place? Michael Bush says not to bother waxing the starter strips...
And if just foundation, do I melt it into place? Will that be enough to hold it in place? Jam a bunch of wax into the groove?
Thanks all!
 
#14 · (Edited)
Shorter piece of foundation, yes. Imagine the bees will festoon from the edge of your foundation strip -- hundreds of bees, all linked together with the top row of bees holding onto the bottom edge of your foundation strip, and they've warmed up the entire area including the foundation strip. Bingo, there goes the foundation strip. Full sheets of foundation they cluster on, starter strips they festoon from the bottom edge of. The foundation needs to be fastened securely and be narrow enough that the stress of the bees weight pulling on it will not tear it down.

I dribble melted wax into the groove with the foundation strip, to hold it in place. Wood glue works well with wood to wood fastening, like the popsicle sticks. I prefer Weldbond III.
 
#16 ·
I believe what Mike B is talking about with waxing the starter strips is this: if you are using wood popsicle sticks or something similar you don't need to rub wax on it to encourage them to work there. If you are putting a small piece of wax foundation in to work as a starter strip then you should wax it into place so it doesn't fall out. I personally normally just use the wedge top frames and turn the wedge sideways as my my starter strip works pretty good.
 
#20 ·
Using popsicle sticks - do you go from one corner of the frame to the other, or just one centered in the frame? Wax foundation - full length and 1/4 - 3/8 inch below the top bar?
I buy the larger 'craft sticks' popsicle sticks- they give more of a ridge hanging down for the bees to build on. Glue them in from one corner to the other, all the way across, and break a stick to fill in the last irregular length gap. Sometimes you might need to put them in dubled if the gap between the frame wedges is wide. You can leave spaces between the sticks of like 1/4", it doesn't have to be perfect at all! But yes all the way across not just one stick in the middle. Use Titebond II - that's a waterproof exterior wood glue. Regular Titebond is not waterproof.
 
#19 ·
Ken, check them often. If they get off-track just press the comb straight with your thumb. They will repair the comb. Occasionally you may have to take it out and let them start over. Better to catch a crooked comb right away. If you don't keep an eye on them they can make quite a mess. They WILL draw about 10-20% drone cells. If it is for honey, who cares. I move drone comb to the outside in the brood nest. They will usually fill it with honey. You CANNOT keep out all drone comb ! If you are experienced, you know that they only draw comb during a honeyflow.
 
#23 ·
I would use the "jumbo craft sticks" with no wax and glue them into the groove. If you want to use wax starter strips, you can, but they have to be anchored well as Joseph pointed out or they will fall when the bees hang on them. When I used wax strips I always waxed them into the groove with melted wax from a wax tube fastener.
 
#25 ·
Ted,
My extractor is a small two-frame SS basket inside a SS tank. I got it second hand at a barn auction -- I'm not sure but I think it originated from Dadant. It is operated by a hand crank, but I haven't had the time to use it for several years now, so the little honey I harvest I either crush and strain or just leave in the comb (chunk comb honey). I have a touch of O.C.D. that helps to keep me away from the sticky of honey. Raising queens and nucs has become my beekeeping, modus operandi.
 
#26 ·
Yesterday I moved 4 frames of necter and capped honey to the upper deep between frames being drawn. I then placed 1 frame with popsicle sticks for starters between 2 framemes of capped brood. Then I placed 1 with wax starter between the next capped frames. I melted wax into the groove on 1 frame let it cool and repeated until I have a nice little ridge the length of the frame and installed it likewise. The 4th frame I just melted waxonto the surface of an ungrooved frame and installed it. I'll let you know in a week as to which they like best.
 
#27 ·
Foundationless works faster and fine however it isn't a bad idea to have foundation every so often. They will occaisionally build east / west instead of north / south which can end up a big mess if you do not catch it in time.
 
#28 ·
They will occaisionally build east / west instead of north / south which can end up a big mess if you do not catch it in time.
My hives are faceing east and west maybe that's why the burr comb (Comb) is being built east and west crossways over the tops of my frames. I guess I should turn my hives so the front door is faceing south.
 
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