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  1. #41
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    I have no Dog in this fight, but this article was rather interesting and perhaps some would like to comment.

    http://www.saber.ula.ve/bitstream/12.../1/quality.pdf



    Seems there are some other large organizations (Codex Ailenmentares(sp)) that do not call what is produced by stingless bees, Honey. They go on to say that Honey is produced by Apis and stingless bees produce "Divine Elixor". Something to do with medicinal qualities and seemingly a different chemistry.
    Last edited by hpm08161947; 07-01-2011 at 08:59 AM.

  2. #42
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    hpm:

    That would make them 'divine elixor bees'!



    Here I am trying to tell them what to call their bees, and they can come up with something way cooler than 'honey bees'.


  3. #43
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    hpm:

    That would make them 'divine elixor bees'!

    :
    Yea.. "Divine Elixir" is way cooler than just honey, isn't it. Seems to have something to do with their belief that it is primarily a medicinal substance. At least that is the way I read it.

    So is this debate over? Divine Elixir Bees and Honey bees?

  4. #44
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    Quote Originally Posted by hpm08161947 View Post
    I have no Dog in this fight, but this article was rather interesting and perhaps some would like to comment.
    I hadn't seen that article before. But think about it: If your honey bee puts sugar syrup in your super, most people here would say that's not even true honey, even though it can be hard to detect and it was made by a true honey bee. So yeah, whoever said that what stingless bees produce was technically even honey? The natives don't call it honey. We came along and called it honey. But science says it's not honey, therefore the bees that make it aren't honey bees. Besides, stingless bees aren't genus Apis, so they aren't defined as honey bees. No matter how it's spelled.

    Plus, for anyone fussing about a tiny American entomological society that was tasked with creating the naming convention we use, were you aware that every single INTERNATIONAL organization I can find agrees that "if it isn't Apis, it isn't a honey bee."? I'm waiting to hear back from a few Central/South American beekeeping organizations and entomological groups, and when they confirm that they, too, agree that stingless bees are not honey bees, I will let everybody know. I'll even tell you whom I contacted and what their contact info is so you can verify it. Is that culturally sensitive enough for you? If not, by god I'll find a genuine bush doctor with a scientific degree AND a bone in his nose and we'll see what he has to say. If that won't satisfy you......
    Last edited by byron; 07-01-2011 at 10:10 AM. Reason: wrong field...

  5. #45
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    Not meaning to muddy the waters, but I keep thinking that Honey is nothing more than evaporated Nectar. It's nature is a function of what plants it is gathered from. Therefore this "Divine Elixir", must be the product of the Flora that the stingless bees gather nectar from? Or do the the stingless bees do something chemical... to the Nectar? Does Apis in the same environment produce "Divine Elixir"?

  6. #46
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    Quote Originally Posted by hpm08161947 View Post
    So is this debate over? Divine Elixir Bees and Honey bees?
    Like Michael Bush says, "It depends." Let's look at what we know, look at what we have learned, and see if WLC admits his mistake or not:

    I had stated on another thread that Native Americans did not have honey bees until Europeans brought them to America.

    WLC said that the Mayans were Native Americans and they had kept honey bees for thousands of years, so I was wrong.

    I stated that neither the Mayans nor current residents in that geographic location refer to themselves as Native Americans, and that science does not consider non-Apis insects to be honey bees. We also learned that what Melipona produces is not even honey.

    I repeated that every domestic and international scientific organization or association or society that I could find that had any opinion on the matter agreed with me: "If it's in family Apidae, it's a bee, but if it's not in genus Apis, it's not a honey bee."
    WLC says science is racist and he can use his own naming scheme.

    WLC also has instructed us that it must be spelled Honeybee (one word, capital H) because it is a proper name for a livestock breed. I can find no society, association or organization that will confirm this, and WLC has refused my many requests for any factual reason to agree with this.

    Do we all agree that this is a fair and accurate summary of our collective intellectual pursuit here?

    I have enjoyed everybody's contribution in these threads and I've learned a lot. This should not have been a debate, since all I did was state scientific facts, but we are human, so there we go.

    I guess whether we need to keep defending the facts depends on WLC's willingness to continue denying them.

    And no, I see no reason to rename stingless bees "Divine Elixir Bees." But I can check with the natives down there and see what they want us to do.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    Quote Originally Posted by hpm08161947 View Post
    Does Apis in the same environment produce "Divine Elixir"?
    I have to leave the house and can't look anything up now, but I'd find out the chemical definition of honey. If the AHB can get nectar from some of the same plants as stingless bees but still produce true honey, then the difference must be in what the different types of bees do with the nectar internally. We know that the stingless bee "honey" ferments faster and more easily than true honey, but is this because of the bee or the plants?
    AHB and stingless bees do work plants that the other will not work, but there must be an overlap, or else the AHB wouldn't physically attack the stingless bees, unless they are just racist.
    Otherwise animals, unlike people, for the most part, aren't designed to waste energy fighting unless shared resources are at stake. Certain humans are capable of developing a surplus economy rendering them completely able to engage in wars for no good reason at all. Animals are more thrifty with their energy.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    hpm:

    I think that you're definition of honey as evaporated nectar is close, however I know that Honeybees add other substances from their digestive tract to nectar to form honey.

    I have no idea what substances Melipona, Trigona, and the other species in the article you've mentioned might add to nectar to form their 'divine elixor'.

    I would take the 'divine elixor' appelation as a clue. We know that the Mayans had bee gods. Could this be what we are seeing? A cultural resurgence where indigenous people are creating a direct link between their cultural heritage and beekeeping/honey production? (oops, I meant 'divine elixor' production).

    And now, we see yet another organization, a food board, tell them that their honey isn't honey at all.

    It's not just the ESA and byron that are kicking indigenous beekeepers around anymore.

  9. #49
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    hpm, let me keep your link close at hand for a few comments here.

    http://www.saber.ula.ve/bitstream/12.../1/quality.pdf

    It looks like the ESA has found a way to bone themselves yet again.

    We already know that the indigenous people of the Americas were agriculturally vastly more advanced than the Europeans who conquered them. They still are in many ways, particularly in the great diversity of species that they use in their agriculture.

    Even in terms of their Apiculture, we can see that they are using a great diversity of species for honey production (I'm tired of writing 'divine elixor'/'divine elixir' since it's not really cogent.).

    So using the ESA's own taxonomic identification for the bee species involved, I count 46 different species are involved. Although I only took a quick head count.

    THAT'S FORTY-SIX DIFFERENT SPECIES OF 'BEES' USED BY INDIGENOUS BEEKEEPERS FOR HONEY PRODUCTION!

    That's pretty danged impressive. How many species does the rest of the Apis mellifera world use for honey production?
    Last edited by WLC; 07-01-2011 at 12:19 PM.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    That's pretty danged impressive. How many species does the rest of the Apis mellifera world use for honey production?
    I too noted the number of species of stingless bees. Between Mexico and Guatemala there were approximately 46 species. Given that they are not too far from the equator an increased diversity is not too surprising. If I remember correctly - the further from the equator the less the diversity in a particular biome. If you are suggesting that the indigenous people of Guatemala are fascinating, I will hardily agree. I have visited there and would love to return... if nothing else just to see some of these stingless bees and how they are cultivated.

  11. #51
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    I stand corrected, 46 it is. For now.

    I've also noticed that the local names for their bees were not only in Spanish, but weren't capitalized. Tsk, tsk. Breeds are still proper names and should always be capitalized. Philistines!

    Secondly, I wonder what they're called in their own native tongue?

    We may never know.

    I'm getting the feeleing that we're asking the wrong folks how to spell Honeybee/honey bee.

    Those indigenous groups are very likely world class, master beekeepers.

  12. #52
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    Quote Originally Posted by byron View Post
    Come on, man, when did you stop paying attention? Stop criticizing me for "saying the same thing" when you aren't even following any of the information.
    Well, excuse me for being retarded, but both of you guys look alike from here and I am having a hard time telling you apart, especially because you both have the same tone.

    Besides, I didn't say you both called them honeybees. You both appeared to say that Malipona are "true bees". Did I misunderstand one or both of you? Are Malipona bees or not? Honeybees I'm not asking about. Just bees. Do they have all of the necassary characteristcs to be called Bees?

    When you call them stingless bees, apparently they are bees, right? I don't have a problem not calling them Honeybees, 'cause my bees are honey bees and, as far as I know, Melipona don't look much like my bees.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  13. #53
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    Quote Originally Posted by hpm08161947 View Post
    Yea.. "Divine Elixir" is way cooler than just honey, isn't it.
    Isn't Ambrosia another word for Honey. It may not be Devine, but it is pretty cool.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  14. #54
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    hpm:

    I think that you're definition of honey as evaporated nectar is close, however I know that Honeybees add other substances from their digestive tract to nectar to form honey.
    I guess if you consider the mandibular glands part of the digestive tract, then you are correct. Otherwise what you think you know is wrong. I tend to think of mouth parts as being seperate from the digestive TRACT, even though in Humans digestion (the breaking down of food) may start in the mouth from saliva. I consider the Digestive Tract to be the stomach on down threw the intestines.

    Honeybees gather nectar from flowers and carry that nectar in their honey stomaches, which is a stomach before their digestive stomach. When a bee gets back to the hive, the nectar is regurgitrated, passed from one bee to another and all the while secretions from the mandibular glands are added to the nectar and along w/ evapoaration of moisture changes the nectar into Honey.

    That's the way I understand it. Smarter people than I can now set me straight. I'm ready to learn what I didn't know before.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  15. #55
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Isn't Ambrosia another word for Honey. It may not be Devine, but it is pretty cool.
    Anbrosia bees and Honey bees.... yup... that settles it!

  16. #56
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    sqkcrk:

    Yes, I know about the glands.

    Since the Apidae: Apis, Melipona, and Trigona make honey that is gathered by humans...

    Why don't we call Apis species 'stinging bees' (they're still Honeybees)?

    It seems unfair to knock Melipona and Trigona by calling them 'stingless bees' while refusing to call them 'honey bees'.

    Sooo...

    ...to be perfectly fair, Apis species would be called 'stinging bees' while the Melipona and Trigona species would be still be called 'stingless bees'.

    They all still make honey. It's just that someone decided to knock Melipona and Trigona by making them seem whimpy by calling them 'stingless'.

    So, let's make Apis species seem mean by calling them 'stinging'.

    There's a type of conceit going on when we let one group of people name another group's bees for them.

    Invariably, the group that isn't being represented gets the short end of the stick.

    Think of this as a social justice issue.

    Just admit that they're all honey bees. That's fair.

  17. #57
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Well, excuse me for being retarded,
    You are not retarded, I'm sorry for getting impatient.

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Besides, I didn't say you both called them honeybees. You both appeared to say that Malipona are "true bees". Did I misunderstand one or both of you?
    Yes. Melipona are Apidae, which makes them bees, but not genus Apis, which makes them not honey bees.

  18. #58
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    There's a type of conceit going on when we let one group of people name another group's bees for them.
    It would be interesting to hear just what they call them. And I am willing to bet it would be equally confusing. I suspect you know how many different Quiche (sp) dialects they use in Guatemala. Bet my Babelfish won't translate even into 1 dialect of Quiche.

  19. #59
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    hpm:

    It's likely alot more confusing than that.

    These bees are being kept by locals throughout various parts of central and south america.

    No one really knows how many different species of bees are involved, let alone all of of the possible names in the various local dialects.

  20. #60
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    I would take the 'divine elixor' appelation as a clue. We know that the Mayans had bee gods. Could this be what we are seeing? A cultural resurgence...
    A resurgence? Read the literature. Stingless beekeeping will be completely extinct in a few years, apparently. In fact, a survey of a once-popular area of the Mayan lowlands shows the rapid decline of beekeepers, down to around 70 in 2004.



    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Secondly, I wonder what they're called in their own native tongue?
    We may never know.
    The traditional Mayan name for this bee is Xunan kab, literally meaning "royal lady".
    The Mayans regard honey (cab) as a gift of the bee gods (ah muzen cab), a food from the heavens (Tozzer and Allen 1910, 298 ff.).
    The Mayan word for "honey" was also the same as the word for "world," so the honey god Ah Mucen Cab was also involved with the creation of the world.
    http://atheism.about.com/od/mayangodsgoddesses
    /p/AhMucenCab.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    And now, we see yet another organization, a food board, tell them that their honey isn't honey at all.
    It's not just the ESA and byron that are kicking indigenous beekeepers around anymore.
    Since their word for that is "world," who was it that called it honey in the first place? Mean white people that didn't ask the natives. Now you think it's unfair that scientists determine it isn't honey. Find out what to be indignant about. And did you ask the natives if they wanted you to be indignant on their behalf? Seems a little condescending for you to assume.
    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Those indigenous groups are very likely world class, master beekeepers.
    They'd have to be, to get anything out of that stingless junk. It's easy to get a ton of honey from the superior Apis genus, how long would it take to get the same amount from Melipona? It's like trying to milk a chicken. Don't ask.....

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