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  1. #21
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    sqkcrk:

    I would think that other languages, besides Spanish, would be involved.

    But, that's not quite what I mean by bringing up the issue of calling other bees besides Apis species 'honey bees'.

    It's as if the 'tail is wagging the dog'. Why is the ESA telling beekeepers what to call their bees?

  2. #22
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Kretschmann View Post
    somebody here will eat your lunch and throw your carcass to the wolves.
    Not in this thread, Ted. This is a 'fun' thread where we get to jive round!
    Regards, Barry

  3. #23
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    When we get to 15,000 members, we'll get to rename planets as well!
    I think the number of people who viewed this thread in it's first 24 hours outnumbers all of the indigenous beekeepers in Central and South America combined. By WLC's logic maybe we can take a vote and rename them.

    So sorry for not staying on topic, but I was responding to your post....
    Last edited by byron; 06-30-2011 at 09:19 PM. Reason: added smiley face to make it all better.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    'When we get to 15,000 members, we'll get to rename planets as well!'

    Could we? I'd like to get Pluto back if at all possible. Danged International Astronomical Union!

    Melipona are restricted to the Americas, but Trigona are pantropical (Brand, 1988).

    I can't estimate how many honey bee colonies the Melipona and Trigona beekeepers have collectively worldwide. But, I'd guess that it's a big number. How many of those beekeepers have ever heard of the ESA?

  5. #25
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Kretschmann View Post
    There is an awful lot of hairsplitting that goes on in the forums... you had better have your I's dotted...
    Nah, if we were splitting hairs, we'd point out that you don't generally need to dot the capital "I."
    I wonder if they even consulted all the little pygmies before re-classifying Pluto. Maybe that's why it took so long....the scientists had to wait to hear back from all the Eskimos and hottentots to make sure the constellations were given culturally sensitive names.

    Is that the general consensus here? That whichever scientific organization has the most popularity and members is the one with the right to name/classify things in their own country? Is there an apicultural society that considers non-Apis insects to be true honey bees of any spelling?

    And can anybody find any source for the reason why Melipona were not placed in the Apis genus? I mean, besides the current theory that science is racist and has no business telling anyone what to call things.

    I will try my best to find these two answers and post what I find.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    Quote Originally Posted by byron View Post
    The Guatemalan illiteracy rate is 35%, and much higher in the rural areas, so the majority of indigenous beekeepers there can't even spell "honey bee" in their own language, much less Spanish, English, or Latin.

    they aren't considered true honey bees.
    That doesn't answer my question at all. I asked what do THEY call themselves. Not whether they could write it or not.

    Maybe they aren't considered true honey bees because taxonomically (isthat the right word) they don't fit. When those who classify insects decide which camp to put hymonopterous insects, the Bees Camp or the Wasps Camp, my understanding is that they look to see if the hairs on their bodies are straight or plumous, everything else being the same. So, maybe mallipona don't fit at all. I don't know. Never having even seen a photo of one.

    Your last paragraph was totally unnecassary and had nothing what so ever to do w/ my questions and only servces to further agitate your opponent. Let it go. I only appreciate sparring when I am the one doing it.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  7. #27
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Why is the ESA telling beekeepers what to call their bees?
    Who says they are? Maybe one could look on their efforts as trying to bring some order to how living critters are Ordered and Classified so they can be differenciated and discussed intelligently by the most people. There are alot more people out there who talk about Bees than there are Beekeepers.

    Just a thought and maybe some more fuel for someones fire. But, why is it beekeeper and not bee keeper? Is it that butterfly as opposed to house fly thing? Or an exception to that line of thinking? Hmmm.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  8. #28
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    Apidae, which includes Apis, Melipona, and Trigona are all true bees. If they are used for gathering honey, that makes them honey bees. Apis species used for gathering honey are Honeybees (so, they fit in both groups).

    'There are alot more people out there who talk about Bees than there are Beekeepers.'

    Yes, and they're in many other countries, speaking a multitude of languages. But, why should the ESA be able to say to people who keep honey bees in other countries, besides the U.S. where those bees aren't even found naturally, that they're not honey bees?

    Let me put it this way, a U.S. based organization can't 'name away' the purpose for which indigenous people are using bees that they own and care for.

    In the Americas, there's also another reason why keeping Melipona and Trigona may be the only option for keeping honey bees. AHB. You don't have to be concerned about your bees becoming Africanized if you're working with Melipona and Trigona honey bees. You can keep your honey bees near your dwellings that way.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Apidae, which includes Apis, Melipona, and Trigona are all true bees. If they are used for gathering honey, that makes them honey bees. Apis species used for gathering honey are Honeybees (so, they fit in both groups).
    Is the amount of honey that they produce commercially significant to the Meli. and Trig. beekeeper? It seems to me that the Wax may be the main reason they keep these bees. The honey appears to be secreted between alternating spiraling bands of brood. How they get the honey out must be truly tedious. Of course it may be sold as comb.. sort of a brood honey sandwich - and I do realize many cultures love protein rich brood. So it could be these are really Wax Bees? What does TED think.... he has seen them in person.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    hpm:

    They're generally small scale operations anyhow. I can't comment on the main uses of their honey (sweetener/medicine/ritual?). They may use their wax for a variety of purposes, including as an adhesive. Perhaps coffee pollination is also the main reason for keeping them (more beans per bush).

    How indigenous people use natural products is something for cultural geographers and the like to explore.

  11. #31
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Apidae, which includes Apis, Melipona, and Trigona are all true bees. If they are used for gathering honey, that makes them honey bees. Apis species used for gathering honey are Honeybees (so, they fit in both groups).

    But, why should the ESA be able to say to people who keep honey bees in other countries, besides the U.S. where those bees aren't even found naturally, that they're not honey bees?

    In the Americas, there's also another reason why keeping Melipona and Trigona may be the only option for keeping honey bees. AHB. You don't have to be concerned about your bees becoming Africanized if you're working with Melipona and Trigon.
    One of you says they are true bees and the other says they aren't? Is that right? So, you disagree on that too?

    Who says the ESA does tell people in other countries what to call their bees? Did the ESA put out an Edict or something? I'm sure other people can ignore them if they wish. After all, even tho it ain't in the Constitution, we have an Inheirent Right to Ignore. Our Freedom to Ignore cannot be taken away.

    So, you maintain that AHB will not displace Melipone in the same way it does Apis mellifera? You sure about that? Or, maybe, the climate is not suitible for AHB? Are Melipone (which appears to be a Latin word) kept at higher elevations?
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  12. #32
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    Taxonomy is one thing. That is the ESA's gig. I disagree on the ESA definition of 'honey bee'. It's flawed in many ways as I've described before.

    I ignore the ESA definition because it's also telling us here in the U.S. what other people are doing with their bees around the world. That is definitely NOT their gig.

    Melipona do have an elevation limit because they reportedly can't survive below 10 degrees C. .

    It's one of the reasons why Brand concluded that EHBs were present in Mexico in the 16th century. You can only get white wax and clear honey from EHBs at higher elevations in Mexico. Wax and honey from Melipona is darker, and they can't survive at 1,860 meters.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    So, if elevation has no effect of keeping AHB from displacing a colony of Melipona, what would? Not that this has anything to do w/ spelling Honeybee correctly or properly.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  14. #34
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    I wouldn't say that AHB displaces Melipona. AHB queens don't take over Melipona colonies (unless you've heard otherwise).

    If you want honey bees in AHB country, and you're in the tropics, then Melipona/Trigona might be a viable alternative to EHB. You can avoid 'africanization' issues.

    In the highlands, you might be stuck with EHB/AHB since Melipona might not be viable. I don't know about Trigona.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post

    If you want honey bees in AHB country, and you're in the tropics, then Melipona/Trigona might be a viable alternative to EHB. You can avoid 'africanization' issues.

    .
    I would not think that africanized bees could interbreed with Melipona or Trigona... as they are different species. But then again... bee genetics is so weird that I could be wrong.

  16. #36
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    That doesn't answer my question at all.
    Sorry. Just because I quote you and respond doesn't mean every sentence after that is also a response to anything you may have said.

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    I only appreciate sparring when I am the one doing it.
    Yep, and I only enjoy sparring when I am lucky enough to have an opponent that actually says, repeatedly, that he wants everyone to follow his own particular naming convention because science is racist and entomologists shouldn't be naming insects. I mean, what a gift. That's like a pork chop to a pit bull to someone who likes to be right anyway. I just have to remember to add smiley faces and dancing bananas to everything so it can pass as lighthearted banter between old chums and not an actual adult conversation where someone might have to be wrong about something. None of that! Move along!

  17. #37
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    One of you says they are true bees and the other says they aren't? Is that right? So, you disagree on that too?
    Come on, man, when did you stop paying attention? Stop criticizing me for "saying the same thing" when you aren't even following any of the information. NOBODY in any scientific field I am aware of calls Melipona honey bees, because they aren't in genus Apis. No apiculturists, no entomologists, no biologists. WLC is saying that, correct me if I'm wrong WLC, if a stingless bee produces honey for humans, then science is wrong and we all have to call them true honey bees. I have asked him for any source for his definition of what a honey bee is, but, if you recall, first he refused to even acknowledge my question, then he finally tells us that he thinks science is racist and entomologists have no business naming insects in other countries without asking the jungle peoples' permission, and they have no right to tell beekeepers what to call bees.
    Last edited by byron; 07-01-2011 at 10:09 AM. Reason: added dancing banana. not sure why, but when in Rome...

  18. #38
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    Quote Originally Posted by hpm08161947 View Post
    I would not think that africanized bees could interbreed with Melipona or Trigona... as they are different species.
    Not just different species, different genus completely. They (stingless bees) aren't Apis which makes them not honey bees, which is what this thread was originally about.

  19. #39
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    I would say that science can be biased in some rather unexpected ways. It's the norm and not the exception. Those of us who keep current with the literature, with advanced degrees in science, with research experience, and university level teaching experience know this already.

    We also know how to use that bias to our own advantage.

    I'd also say that the ESA's definitions only apply to their own membership under certain circumstances, and perhaps to certain scientific publications that follow their guidelines.

    Otherwise, they really don't apply to beekeepers. Sorry, but they ain't the boss of me now.

    (where's that danged dancing banana?)




  20. #40
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    Default Re: "Correct" spelling of honey bee (honeybee)

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    I wouldn't say that AHB displaces Melipona. AHB queens don't take over Melipona colonies (unless you've heard otherwise).
    AHB physically attack stingless bees, and they out compete them. But stingless bees have been seen to change their foraging patterns to avoid contact with AHB.

    There doesn't seem to be hard evidence of AHB alone displacing stingless bees (either the wild ones or the domesticated ones) but anecdotal observations from the natives support AHB as a contributing factor. The main thing displacing the stingless bees is the native people themselves. Stingless queens can't fly, so the natives' slash and burn practices condemn entire colonies to death, whereas, as we all know, AHB, as opposed to other honey bees, will leave brood in a heartbeat. That makes Africans notoriously bad parents, but when you live in a rough neighborhood, you can travel faster without the kids.

    Also, stingless bees need nice big hollow branches to nest in, and with the natives logging every big tree they can find, it gives an edge to honey bees that are more versatile in their choice of habitat.

    Of course, I only get this information from scientists who don't call non-Apis insects honey bees, so feel free to ignore it. I'm also not sure if the indigenous peoples signed off on the study.


    http://www2.fiu.edu/~kopturs/pubs/Ca...otropica05.pdf
    Last edited by byron; 07-02-2011 at 12:28 AM. Reason: Insert banana here. Wait, that sounds wrong. Got Barry all excited.

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