Is there such a thing as organic bee keeping

[Acebird]

If my hive dies because of mite infestation can I use the equipment again for another colony?
If I douse the hive with a chemical that has a warning to wear a respirator and the colony ends up dead anyway SHOULD I use that equipment again for another colony?
Of course everyone's answer is going to be different but what is worse?
I've made my choice.

[Scrapfe]

Give us your definition of both... most people know that treating with commercial pesticides is not organic beekeeping.

Root words, organ or organism.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/organic
or-gan-ic
[awr-gan-ik]
–adjective
1. noting or pertaining to a class of chemical compounds that formerly comprised only those existing in or derived from plants or animals, but that now includes all other compounds of carbon.
2. characteristic of, pertaining to, or derived from living organisms: organic remains found in rocks.
3. of or pertaining to an organ or the organs of an animal, plant, or fungus.
4. of, pertaining to, or affecting living tissue: organic pathology.
[definitions 5 to 10 and 12 to 14 were deleted for space reasons.]
11. pertaining to, involving, or grown with fertilizers or pesticides of animal or vegetable origin, as distinguished from manufactured chemicals:
-noun
15. a substance, as a fertilizer or pesticide, of animal or vegetable origin.

Since commercial fertilizers are produced using minerals or compounds found in nature like phosphate rock or using feed stocks like natural gas, (a product produced by or from a (once) living oganism, commercial fertilizers are "organic" in nature. (no pun intended)

The term "organic" means nothing more and nothing less than carbon based. Anything and everything in the animal or plant kingdom is "organic" by definition. Carbon is the mineral upon which all life is based. Coal, crude oil, granulated & powdered sugar, food grade MINERAL oil, tomatoes, essential oils, chicken eggs, gasoline, (essential crude oil) and any number of things with a carbon bond like honey or HFCS are therefore "organic". Water however, even the purest water on Earth is "inorganic" as well as is life giving oxygen. Carbon dioxide (CO2) on the other hand is 100% organic.

Minerals like iron, sulfur, etc. are inorganic, meaning they are not made up of or held together by carbon atoms. Of course if you use the definition health food emporiums prefer, things like Plutonium which are both man made and found nowhere in nature are "inorganic." If that is the case then a health food store cannot sell "organic" sour kraut since sour kraut is both man made and found nowhere in nature.

Pyrethrum is marketed as an "organic" pesticide meaning it is both found in nature (in aster, mum, and marigold flowers) and is carbon based, living or once living. As for feeding, I don't know if feeding bees is a bee treat or a bee treatment? That decision is one that the bees' haver must make for him or herself. “Organic” in the sense it is used in this thread is totaly subjective, meaning using the term "organic" it is like a church fighting over about how many angles can do the hoochie coochie on the point of a needle.

[Dana]

The term "organic" has come to mean what the certifying agencies say it means, which I don't know. IMO, everything is "natural", but I know that most people don't mean to use the term that way. Language is tricky. If a person wants to actually communicate, it's best to describe in detail what they're doing and not doing. I would rather not even use sugar to feed, but living up to my own ideals is hard.

I do think it's neat that there are so many math geeks here I got a Ph.D. in it. So I can at least do the bee math...

[frostygoat]

Root words, organ or organism.
“Organic” in the sense it is used in this thread is totaly subjective, meaning using the term "organic" it is like a church fighting over about how many angles can do the hoochie coochie on the point of a needle.

Good point, but it isn't subjective given the national organic standards for agricultural products. Chemists be damned, the USDA will decide what organic means. However, honey doesn't yet have national organic standard or even a definition. When it does, they will surely allow certain insecticides/miticides such as Bt.

[Genevabees]

Deknow; I bought your book and am really enjoying it; thanks to you and your wife; it is so easy to understand....

[SweetThing]

Even back in Shakespeare's time they found ways to poison people with extractions from nature's own plants. It's ironic how we think Organic means it is safe or harmless or better for us then conventional treatments.

[Acebird]

Good point, but it isn't subjective given the national organic standards for agricultural products. Chemists be damned, the USDA will decide what organic means. However, honey doesn't yet have national organic standard or even a definition. When it does, they will surely allow certain insecticides/miticides such as Bt.

In the mean time you or me as a hobbyist can practice organic bee keeping whether the honey harvested is "certified" or not. There are many people practicing organic farming either for profit or for their own use. You don't have to be certified to be practicing organic farming.

[lazy shooter]

Dana:

My bride of 51 years is named Dana, after her father named Dan A. Scott. It is pronounced like the contraction of Dan A. She has a Ph.D. in Education, but her first degree was in Statistics. It's been tough living with a statistician all these years. I swear those people don't have any common sense.

Back to the bees and what is organic, I don't want to use any chemicals that require respirators or chemical gloves. If it has a cutaneous warning or is dangerous in a vapor stage, I don't want to use it, period. The same goes for any chemical that has "do not use if ...." written on it.

[Acebird]

It's ironic how we think Organic means it is safe or harmless or better for us then conventional treatments.

I don't think anyone who believes in the "organic" philosophy assumes the "safe and harmless" that you speak of. They do believe in general that naturally organic formed substances are far better than any substance that requires tinkering from a human designed process to occur.
For instance if the need to feed was evident which would be the better choice:
honey, cane sugar, beet sugar, corn syrup or splenda? If you have an organic philosophy you pick the best choice. If you don't have an organic philosophy it seems like you don't care. If the bees will consume it you look for what you can get the cheapest and that is what they get. In this respect, I am an organic bee keeper.

[deknow]

I believe that was even, or especially true, in untreated hives which were on foundationless comb. Check w/ Mary Anne Frazier to be sure.

Mark, respectfully, if you think you can offer some clarification of what I wrote, you ought to contact Maryann (or look it up) yourself. Please post your findings here.

deknow

[summer1052]

Dear Moderator;

Respectfully requesting that this entire thread be moved to the section Treatment Free Beekeeping where it belongs by definition.
And perhaps some of the other threads could be tidied up and moved to Gardening for Bees, Pests, and Beekeeping101.

Seems like there's a lot of extra scrolling through threads these days.

Thank you.
Sum

[Acebird]

If you look at post #15 it has been argued that treatment free and organic are two different things so I guess the topic is in the right place to be hashed out. Although I am sure neither side will be swayed.

[sqkcrk]

Mark, respectfully, if you think you can offer some clarification of what I wrote, you ought to contact Maryann (or look it up) yourself. Please post your findings here.

deknow

Just going on memory of what Mary Ann said at the Pollinators and Pesticides Conference at Alfred State U, Alfred, NY, last year. I wasn't disputing what you said, just adding to it. And, it is entirely possible that my memory isn't all that good or that I misunderstood what she said.

My recollection is that Mary Ann and crew obtained package bees and shook them into hives w/ foundationless frames, allowing the bees to build comb, from which they took samples, finding all sorts of pesticides including those deknow mentioned.

Her conclusion was that the fluvalinate and coumophaus either came w/ the bees from treated colonies in the South, the package producers, or it came into the hive from the environment.

Either way, she stated that there was no where that one could go where pesticide residue isn't found. Our environment is generally polluted w/ all sorts of chemicals, including pesticides.

Dean, when you have honey tested, do you test for specific chemicals? Or for all chemicals which don't make up honey?

[sqkcrk]

...and it's worth noting that when Penn State tested wax, bees, beebread, pollen, etc that the highest levels of pesticide was Fluvalinate and Coumaphos. So the worst of the contamination is coming from the beekeepers.

deknow

I think it is also important to note that where some traces of Fluvalinate and Coumaphos may have and probably did show up in the honey, the highest concentration was in the wax. Which makes sense, being as the Flu. and Coum. are oil based chemicals and wax is an oil. Whereas honey is comprised of water.

Can't quote you chapter and verse. Just some mental regurgetation from Dr. Frasiers' lecture.

[sqkcrk]

Dear Moderator;

Respectfully requesting that this entire thread be moved to the section Treatment Free Beekeeping where it belongs by definition.

Doing so would severely limit the discussion. But, if that's what you want, go ahead.

[deknow]

Just going on memory of what Mary Ann said at the Pollinators and Pesticides Conference at Alfred State U, Alfred, NY, last year. I wasn't disputing what you said, just adding to it. And, it is entirely possible that my memory isn't all that good or that I misunderstood what she said.

Yes, I do know about some of this. Maryann is great, but the source of these contaminants is important. The presence of fluvalinate and/or coumaphos in some foundationless comb wouldn't surprise me, but I would be surprised if the source were the "general environment" (I could easily imagine them being picked up by robbing hives under treatment). I will say that we offered foundationless comb, and we offered to help her get some samples from Dee, but the offers were declined, and we didn't have the $$$ to spend on the testing.

Dean, when you have honey tested, do you test for specific chemicals? Or for all chemicals which don't make up honey?

The testing we had done was not pesticide testing, it was sugar adulteration testing. I will say that 4 samples of Dee's honey were recently sent in to Penn State for their battery of pesticide tests...3 came back at 0 PPB of _anything_, and the 4th had 1 PPB Coumaphos.

deknow

[sqkcrk]

Interesting. So, like you said, and since Dee doesn't use Coumaphos, right?, where could that have come from?

It's my undertstanding that the tests thru Penn State are something anyone can have done if they can pay for part of the cost, until funding runs out. Is that your understanding too?

Whether Flu. or Coum. are gathered by bees, along w/ nectar and pollen, or not, many other chemicals are. I'm glad to see that there are cases where this is not true, such as in Dees' case. We can't all live where she does though.

Thanks for that bit of info. It helps to complete the picture more.

[Nabber86]

The testing we had done was not pesticide testing, it was sugar adulteration testing. I will say that 4 samples of Dee's honey were recently sent in to Penn State for their battery of pesticide tests...3 came back at 0 PPB of _anything_, and the 4th had 1 PPB Coumaphos.

It would be extremely odd for a lab to report something as 0 ppb. Normally a lab wil report a result as ND (non detect) and give a detection (or quantitation) limit. As in: Fluvalinate = ND at 0.5 mg/Kg. This means simply that there was no Fluvalinate detected above 0.5 ppm (or 500 ppb). There could still be Fluvalinate below this level and detection levels can be fairly high depending on the test method and sample matrix. Interpreting lab results can be tricky. Just something to think about........

[deknow]

...you are correct, I was speaking casually.

The level of detection is 1ppb, and in one sample, there was 1ppb of coumaphos found (likely from other beekeepers in the area). Other than that, everything (for all 4 samples) was ND.

deknow

[Nabber86]

1 ppb (µg/Kg)? That's nothing to worry about.

According to the NIH, the Acceptable Daily Intake (ADI) for coumaphos is 0.005 mg/Kg, or about 450 µg per day for a 200-pound adult. That means that you could eat 450 Kg of honey (contaminated at 1 µg/Kg) per day and you would still be ok.