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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Huntersville, NC
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    Default Langstroth as a warre ? yes? no? Thoughts? Suggestions

    Been pouring over a ton of information. Trying to nail down the best hive to go with. I like the Warre concept a lot, but, most of the Russian suppliers in my region only offer nucs. So, no dump of packaged bees, but OK... at least some brood already in progress. The 8 frame English hive from Brushy Mountain I like. The question is, or has anyone, used a Langstroth as a Warre.. if so, just stack brood on top and feed empty boxes in from the bottom? Quilt top still used? I'd imagine a modification would be needed to cover the quilt top with the roof... thoughts? Trying to get a hive design that is best for the bees and ventilation, warmth during the winter ... etc.. here in NC

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Jackson, MO
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    1,858

    Default Re: Langstroth as a warre ? yes? no? Thoughts? Suggestions

    Yes, this can be done, but it won't be an honest-to-Pete Warre hive. Just take your five-frame Langstroth nuc and put it into a Lanstroth box. Add the complimentary strips to adapt the Warre principles, then with every subsequent box, lay in or nail your strips in place of the real frames.

    You can convert a super to your quilted top.

    While it won't be the same, exact dimensions, it will be the same concepts.

    Alternatively, grow your Langstroth nuc into a strong single, then shake all the bees into your conventional Warre hive. To make this idea work even better, set up your Lang where you want your Warre to be. That way all the field bees will become familiar with the location. You can shake your own "package."

    Grant
    Jackson, MO
    Beekeeping With Twenty-five Hives: https://www.createspace.com/4152725

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Langstroth as a warre ? yes? no? Thoughts? Suggestions

    No,no,no,no,NO!!

    But, if you really want to, don't let me stop you.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Huntersville, NC
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    25

    Default Re: Langstroth as a warre ? yes? no? Thoughts? Suggestions

    Thanks for the info...

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Huntersville, NC
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    Default Re: Langstroth as a warre ? yes? no? Thoughts? Suggestions

    LOL.. care to expand on the No No NO thought? I am all ears...

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
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    Default Re: Langstroth as a warre ? yes? no? Thoughts? Suggestions

    Some people manage the Lang closer to the Warre approach; using a quilt box and supering on the bottom. Look around more and you'll find people who are doing it or have tried it. I plan to expand into Langs in the coming years and I'll create some sore of quilt box/roof similar to the Warre.

    Adam

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2011
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    San Francisco, CA
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    2,477

    Default Re: Langstroth as a warre ? yes? no? Thoughts? Suggestions

    What's so bad about using Lang's? I don't get it.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
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    Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
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    Default Re: Langstroth as a warre ? yes? no? Thoughts? Suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie B View Post
    What's so bad about using Lang's?...
    Who's saying that they're so bad?

    Adam

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2011
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    San Francisco, CA
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    Default Re: Langstroth as a warre ? yes? no? Thoughts? Suggestions

    Sorry, I should have explained my thoughts in more detail. Not on this site but on others there seems to be a big debate
    about using Warre hives vs. Langs. There are several makers of Warre hives in the bay area who advertise the benefits of
    Warre hives vs. the "Old way of beekeeping" using Langs.

    Charlie

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Susquehanna county, PA
    Posts
    122

    Default Re: Langstroth as a warre ? yes? no? Thoughts? Suggestions

    http://warre.biobees.com/

    You can download the . free e-book (PDF). It talks about warre's research, his problems with various other hives and how his hive tries to overcome this.

    I have a warre hive, easy to make. As far as not having removable bars, my bars are brad nailed in and can be removed. I have also seen half bars that have a downward bar that runs down about half way to keep it from being attached to the sides.

    Quilted top for me is hardware cloth, then burlap then the wood shavings, then burlap and finally another layer of hardware cloth to keep any mice out. The roof sits on top of that.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Langstroth as a warre ? yes? no? Thoughts? Suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by BeehiveProject View Post
    I am all ears...
    Well, I don't know what is meant by operating one in the manner of the other, but, why wouldn't you just do w/ one what it is designed for?

    How would one operate a Lang in the manner of a Warre?

    Wouldn't that be like using a Lefthand Baseball Mit on your right hand? Sorta?
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
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    Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
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    Default Re: Langstroth as a warre ? yes? no? Thoughts? Suggestions

    >>Charlie B wrote>> "...there seems to be a big debate about using Warre hives vs. Langs. There are several makers of Warre hives in the bay area who advertise the benefits of Warre hives vs. the "Old way of beekeeping" using Langs."

    Well, each design has it's benefits and limitations. A lot of the stuff you hear about how much better one is over another can be traced to marketing a product, or profiting in some way on that approach - and that's understandable. I think we're all better off if we keep an open mind and try our best to use what is available to us to keep healthy bees and to achieve our personal and/or professional goals with bees on a basis of healthy bee management practices.

    ...and it seems like most of us are constantly striving to discover what the best approach to reaching those goals is.

    I think most beekeepers are open to improvement if they see a way to improve. But the meaning of "improvement" is going to vary from one person to the next. This makes it difficult to declare many absolutes regarding what is "best" or "right".


    Adam

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Langstroth as a warre ? yes? no? Thoughts? Suggestions

    Thanks Forgeblast, I'll research it.

    Charlie

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Portland, OR, USA
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    644

    Default Re: Langstroth as a warre ? yes? no? Thoughts? Suggestions

    sqkcrk,

    The main ideas to me would be:

    1) No foundation
    2) Undersupering/Nadiring
    3) Quilt box
    4) Hands off

    You can certainly do this with a Lang, as I've done it with one here or there, though I've not put a quilt box on my Langstroth hives. Giving them a "ladder" comb can help them move up or down into a foundationless box. Even Dr. Miller talks about undersupering in his "50 Years Among the Bees."

    I've just switched my only Langstroth hive to 8 frame mediums, no foundation, as this brings the boxes a little closer to Warre dimensions.

    Best,
    Matt

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Langstroth as a warre ? yes? no? Thoughts? Suggestions

    Why the no foundation route. Do you cut all of your comb from the frames to crush and strain?
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Huntersville, NC
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    25

    Default Re: Langstroth as a warre ? yes? no? Thoughts? Suggestions

    All good info. Will take it under advisement. Concerns with warmth for winter and moisture removal.. I like the quilt top concept. I'd imagine I'll eventually experiment with all forms even the octagon shaped hive.. ran across that one last night.. interesting.. to say the least.

    My focus is not on big honey production for sale, but rather, what give the bees the healthiest environment. Population is down in my area and it has been noticeable in the garden this year. Heck even the hummingbird feeders have been void of bees.. our nectar flow has ground to a halt with the excessive heat. Usually, when that happens, the HB feeders are slammed.

    More thoughts are welcome... just trying to soak it all in and process what route to take in the next few weeks.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
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    Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
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    Default Re: Langstroth as a warre ? yes? no? Thoughts? Suggestions

    People still wire foundationless. I don't think mediums are too much of a problem in terms of sagging comb, but I know many people will wire deeps or divide them with a piece of wood to support the comb surface.

    Adam

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Brainerd, MN
    Posts
    544

    Default Re: Langstroth as a warre ? yes? no? Thoughts? Suggestions

    Well I think that if you plan on using Langs, but want a Warre you are kind picking and choosing. To me the big thing about warre hives is the size. It's supposedly better for the bees and better for wintering based off of the optimal size for the brood nest. If you use 8 frame Langs you are altering those dimensions. You can certainly try it however.

    If I were you and you want to use Langs with some Warre principles I would use foundationless frames. I do not see an issue with using frames as long as they are foundationless. It goes along with the notion of letting bees build their comb to their desires without forcing them to a certain size. You could certainly use top bars if you wanted, but I think the frames would be ok. This would also allow you to recycle comb through as I believe that is an advantage of top bars.

    I would also use the same sized box. You will not be supering at all so you want the same sized box to put underneath.

    I would also try to fashion some sort of quilt. As said you could easily rig up a super or some other box for that. The roof you could probably also figure out as long as the sides of the roof overhang the quilt. You do not want that burlap exposed to the air/rain.

    Other than that stuff....ya just put the frames from the nuc into the top box. Put a box or two underneath it. Add boxes underneath as needed. Right now I am using spare comb in the boxes underneath to encourage the bees down. You would probably do just fine without it, but I guess it doesn't hurt. It might help when they are just starting.

    With these things there are no right answers or wrong answers as this is an opinion matter. If you want to try it go for it. I myself am getting interested in Langs, but I am still in my first year and have plenty on my hands right now. I am also short on the funds to get into Langs, which is why I built 2 KTBHs and 2 Warres for almost nothing. It's all about what works for you!

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Portland, OR, USA
    Posts
    644

    Default Re: Langstroth as a warre ? yes? no? Thoughts? Suggestions

    sqkcrk,

    I believe foundation is unnecessary, costly, and possibly detrimental to the colony. Every test I've done in a hive by putting in frames with foundation and those without has shown that the bees prefer those without foundation. Maybe it was luck, but to me I think for the hobbyist or sideline beekeeper that there is no need for it. I also prefer crushing and straining to extracting as I find it to be quicker (using a fruit press) and it removes old combs from the hive.

    Best,
    Matt

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Huntersville, NC
    Posts
    25

    Default Re: Langstroth as a warre ? yes? no? Thoughts? Suggestions

    Thanks All... will likely go with frames but let the bees draw their own comb. Bush84 good point on the same size box... Will make sure we do that. My buddy is a wood working sort of guy, so we can adapt the top to fit the quilt concept. We'll see how it goes.

    There are so many opinions on this... and you really have to suspend judgement and listen. As mentioned earlier, I am soaking it all in and precessing. Given the reading and re-education of late, I feel like I am back in grad school. Color the better half less than pleased with my lack of hearing orders I am being given at home!

    Anyhoo.. more thoughts are appreciated....

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