virgin queen through excluder

[heaflaw]

Can a virgin queen get through a metal or plastic excluder?

[Riverratbees]

Never happened to me but I suppose a virgin could maybe someone else could give better answer.

[standman]

Yep. Hived a swarm last year with an excluder between the deep box and bottom board. Visited the apiary late the next morning and saw the queen, petite but distinct, walking around on the landing board! Couldn't tell if she was coming or going, but I quickly pulled the excluder off. Had fresh eggs about a week later.

[honeybeekeeper]

Yes they can slip right through an excluder!

[Michael Bush]

Any queen can get through an excluder if she's motivated enough. Although I have seen the stuck in the excluder on one occasion. In theory it's their thorax that doesn't fit, as the abdomen is elastic enough. A virgin queens throrax is it's full size when she emerges.

[indypartridge]

Some beeks have tried using queen excluders to stop swarming, or to try to keep a newly-captured swarm to stay put. Swarm queens, since they have stopped laying and slimmed down for flight, are also known to get through excluders.

[Acebird]

A virgin queens throrax is it's full size when she emerges.

Is that a way to select queens meaning a large thorax?

[Oldtimer]

He means the thorax, which is not flexible, is the part that doesn't fit through an excluder. Therefore a virgin has no more chance than a mated queen, of fitting through.

[Acebird]

He means the thorax, which is not flexible, is the part that doesn't fit through an excluder. Therefore a virgin has no more chance than a mated queen, of fitting through.

I understood that part. My question is, is a large thorax beneficial? Would you select for a large thorax?

[Oldtimer]

Well maybe maybe not, although it should be within the normal range. As a general rule it is assumed a larger queen will have more oviaries and therefore be capable of laying more eggs, and storing more sperm.

If I could choose a queen with a large thorax or a small thorax, I'd take the large one.

[sqkcrk]

Newly mated queens are often found above excluders, which leads one to believe that they rfeturn to the top of the hive or they get thru the excluder. If they get trhru an excluder, it is probably damaged in some way. bent wire of broken zinc.

[heaflaw]

Newly mated queens are often found above excluders,

I've seen that, too. I run an upper entrance above the excluder as well as a bottom entrance. That's one of the reasons I asked the question. Did she return through the upper entrance or get through the excluder?

[Michael Bush]

>My question is, is a large thorax beneficial? Would you select for a large thorax?

I select for gentle, productive, healthy bees. I don't care how large her thorax is.

[Flyer Jim]

>My question is, is a large thorax beneficial? Would you select for a large thorax?

I select for gentle, productive, healthy bees. I don't care how large her thorax is.

If she is still a virgin how do you know if her hive will be gentle and productive?

[Michael Bush]

>>My question is, is a large thorax beneficial? Would you select for a large thorax?
>If she is still a virgin how do you know if her hive will be gentle and productive?

When we are talking about "selection" for genetics, we are, of course, talking about choosing a queen mother, not a virgin. The point is I breed from queens who's colonies are gentle, productive and healthy. Not from queens with large thoraxes.

[Ben Brewcat]

I've more than a few times had laying queens squeeze through excluders; they're an occasionally-useful management tool, but I don't use them routinely on colonies. And it's a queen's abdomen that contains the ovarioles, spermatheca etc. (and hence that some believe large size indicates laying vigor). The thorax is where the flight muscles, breathing apparatus etc. live. Head, thorax, abdomen front to back.

[Oldtimer]

Check your excluder. I've run thousands of hives and if a queen ever got through there would be a hole in the excluder. It doesn't take much and you won't see it looking straight at the excluder, you hold the excluder kind of horizontal, so you are looking along the wires, then any little bends will stand out more.

Also excluders have to be treated with care. When I was learning beekeeping I'd get yelled at if my hive tool even touched the excluder wires.

Large thorax in a virgin will almost invariably equal large queen generally once she is laying.

[jim lyon]

Check your excluder. It doesn't take much and you won't see it looking straight at the excluder, you hold the excluder kind of horizontal, so you are looking along the wires, then any little bends will stand out more.

Also excluders have to be treated with care.

No doubt about it, almost always excluder damage, though sometimes it can be an excluder that dosent seal because of box imperfections and, yes, every once in a while a queen is just a tad smaller or maybe its that she is just more determined. Had one like that in a builder that got through two times through different excluders and destroyed cells both times. Needless to say she didnt get a third chance.

[Acebird]

Plastic excluders don't bend but they might have a broken web.

[Adrian Quiney WI]

This just happened to me. I found a few eggs and and larva on the very edge of some supers that were full. I had deliberately eliminated a top entrance on this hive so it points to a queen getting through an excluder. Reading this thread points to a bent excluder wire as being the culprit.
My related question is do those more experienced than I have any special tricks to getting an excluder off that doesn't involve bending it? Invariably it is attached to the top of the frames below it.
I have made the decision to use excluders, and so saying "Don't use excluders" will not be helpful. Thanks.