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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Saratoga Springs, NY
    Posts
    167

    Default Re: This beek says honey DOES go bad

    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...tal-of-the-U.S.

    My bees work some wind-blown-pollen.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Farmington, New Mexico
    Posts
    6,533

    Default Re: This beek says honey DOES go bad

    Let's narrow this down a little. If honey is properly harvested and packed does it go "bad"? I suppose we could discuss what constitutes proper harvesting and proper packing. I'm talking about fully capped frames being extracted and tested for moisture content and then packed in containers with tight fitting lids and a minimal headspace.
    Nobody ruins my day without my permission, and I refuse to grant it...

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    9,232

    Default Re: This beek says honey DOES go bad

    http://www.benefits-of-honey.com/honey-storage.html

    Are we talking thousands of years?

    We put our extracted frames of honey in the refrigerator and as expected it crystallized. But a refrigerator drys out food and the crystallized honey is now dryer than natural honey. How long will a jar of cane sugar last in a sealed container? Salt? Can you think of any other water soluble crystals?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Postville, Iowa, USA
    Posts
    380

    Default Re: This beek says honey DOES go bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    But a refrigerator drys out food and the crystallized honey is now dryer than natural honey.
    Um, hey, do you have a specific reason to think that, Ace?

    Here's my thinking behind the question -- If the container of honey is sealed, the honey shouldn't become drier, even if you have a frost-free fridge. The sealed container prevents evaporation.

    On the other hand, crystallized honey LOOKS drier, because the sugar crystals thicken the remaining liquid into a paste.

    But YMMV, and I'm curious....

    DeeAnna

  5. #25
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Manassas, VA
    Posts
    58

    Default Re: This beek says honey DOES go bad

    While the conversation has wandered into some interesting areas, I'd like to go back and comment on the quote in the original post.

    There are a number of claims that have never been proven stated as fact. There are meaningless statements about "health properties" which are supposedly "attached" to honey. What are "health properties"? How are they measured? What is the method of "attachment"? Lots of claims, no support.

    People have quite fairly pointed out that honey with too high a moisture content (from whatever source) can ferment. But that isn't the claim this woman is making. She is claiming that over time or through heating, some undefined "health properties" in honey become unattached and, presumably, dissipate into the aether.

    Vague claims made with no clear support... Sounds kind of like marketing to me. How much you wanna bet she runs one of those "certified organic bee farms" she stresses the importance of? Raw, local produced isn't good enough, mind you. The honey needs to come from one of those certified organic bee farms, which is presumably large enough that the bees never go over the wall and take nectar from a non-organic source.
    Want five answers to a bee question? Ask two beekeepers!

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Williston, NC, USA
    Posts
    1,779

    Default Re: This beek says honey DOES go bad

    I have 42 honey customers that buy my honey to alleviate their allergies. If it's the placebo effect, I'm sure they're okay with it; as long as it works.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Manassas, VA
    Posts
    58

    Default Re: This beek says honey DOES go bad

    I can't say if raw local honey helps allergies or not. The science isn't there one way or the other, though there are plenty of conjectures. And unless someone is one of the extremely rare people who has a honey allergy (and there's argument about if there is such a thing), I figure the worst that happens is they get to eat some honey. So if someone wants to go that route, I have no objection.

    I just think that taking those ideas and stating them as if they are proven fact, and mixing them in with hand-wavey pseudo-scientific sounding claims while implying that bees can somehow be restricted to certified organic nectar and pollen sources is at the very least intellectually dishonest.
    Want five answers to a bee question? Ask two beekeepers!

  8. #28
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Snowmass, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    2,497

    Default Re: This beek says honey DOES go bad

    Here is one study...

    http://advance.uconn.edu/1999/990405/04059903.htm

    and this one...

    At least one informal (unfunded) study on allergies and honey conducted by students at Xavier University in New Orleans produced positive results. Researchers divided participants into three groups: seasonal allergy sufferers, year-round allergy sufferers and non-allergy sufferers. These groups were further divided into three subgroups with some people taking two teaspoons of local honey per day, others taking the same amount of non-local honey each day and the final subgroup not taking honey at all. The Xavier students found that after six weeks, allergy sufferers from both categories suffered fewer symptoms and that the group taking local honey reported the most improvement.

    I am sure I could find more if I had time.
    Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid. John Wayne

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    caledon ontario canada
    Posts
    20

    Default Re: This beek says honey DOES go bad

    if it fermented, the moisture content was too high and/or it was contaminated.
    "when the student is ready,the teacher will appear"

  10. #30
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Manassas, VA
    Posts
    58

    Default Re: This beek says honey DOES go bad

    Quote Originally Posted by alpha6 View Post
    Here is one study...
    I've seen both of those.

    RaJanuary's study was in progress over a decade ago, and aside from some preliminary results released while the study was still in progress, I'm not aware of any finalized results ever being made available.
    The Xavier University study seems to have been a sort of improvised study thrown together without any proper peer review, probably lacking in rigorous study design...

    I've seen the many anecdotal claims.

    I've also seen the University of Connecticut study (among others) that found no link.

    I maintain my position that raw local honey may or may not help allergies, but the science isn't there. I also maintain my position that honey is yummy and worth enjoying regardless.
    Want five answers to a bee question? Ask two beekeepers!

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    9,232

    Default Re: This beek says honey DOES go bad

    Um, hey, do you have a specific reason to think that, Ace?
    DeeAnna, they were frames of honey not sealed in jars. If they were sealed in jars and the honey crystallized I still don't think they would ferment because the yeast would not be active at the lower temperature. Usually you have to warm the yeast in the presence of water to get them to grow. If you warm the honey up it will come out of the crystallized state. So it is my guess that you would have to heat the honey up substantially and then leave the cover off to let it spoil.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    26,608

    Default Re: This beek says honey DOES go bad

    Why are you putting extracted frames into a refrigerator? How many frames? How big a refrigerator do you have?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    9,232

    Default Re: This beek says honey DOES go bad

    It seemed like a good idea at the time. There were 16 frames from two supers. There were too sticky and messy to put in the basement and I assumed the deeps were full so if I gave the frames for the bees to rob where would they put it? This season I will have two mediums as part of the brood nest so it will be easier to juggle frames and get the residual honey off the extracted frames. The bees are certainly enjoying the honey now. I am hoping they will repair the frames that I screwed up from last years extraction. I staggered these messed up frames with frames of new foundation. Next week is suppose to be warmer so I will take a look to see how they are doing.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Hawke's Bay, New Zealand
    Posts
    189

    Default Re: This beek says honey DOES go bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    I staggered these messed up frames with frames of new foundation.
    Not sure how 'messed up' you mean, but unless they are are scraped down to about foundation, I wouldnt' stagger them (I assume you mean alternating one of each).

    Because the bees greatly prefer building out established (even if messed up) comb to drawing foundation, when you stagger frames of foundation and comb typically you will get hugely widened existing comb and little or no action on the foundation, to the point where they will even draw the existing comb right into the frame space of the foundation and you can't easily get frames out.

    Generally better off to keep your foundation together and your comb together, so they draw each evenly.

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    JACKSON OHIO
    Posts
    485

    Default Re: This beek says honey DOES go bad

    lets debunk this goes bad crap right now. about 2 years ago my mother had a kitchen sink facet go bad and start leaking . so as i was cleaning out from under the sink there was 3 mason jars in the very back. as i pulled them out and looked at it my mother said what is that i said that is some purple honey from the 70's. NO it wasnt bad yes it was crystlized but a pan of hot water for a water bath and a lot of stiring and it was fine. the only way that honey can go bad is if the moisture content is to high then it will ferment.

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