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  1. #101
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    Default Re: Resistant bees, productive or not

    So what happened with the plan to release the primorsky genetics everywhere? Is it going on or has it stopped now?

    I heard primorsky genetics is a mix of Carniolans and Caucasians with a little bit of AMM, Greek bees and Italians. Is it true? If its true, isnt it the same genetics which is already in the US?

    I guess the primorsky genetics was not selected for anything and basically stayed as wild population and developed resistance to varroa over time. So if they get introduced everywhere, they could bring in the old characters(genes) which were selected against for over a lot time my people. Am i right about this?

  2. #102
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    Default Re: Resistant bees, productive or not

    You have the right idea... they are basically an older version of Ukrainian bees without the last 120+ years of selection... the lack of selection coupled with over a century of acclimization to an environment that is unlike any in this country make interbreeding this strain a huge leap in reverse for the needs of our agricultural system.

    At the moment, I am not sure what their plans are... when I first heard about these plans, my blood boiled and I made several phone calls to try to intervene... since then, I have not heard or seen any other mention of the program... that does not mean that they have reversed their plans... more likely, they are just trying to stay below the radar to avoid a P.R. nightmare from the vast majority of the US beekeepers... the ones that they are Suppose to be working to help...

  3. #103
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    Mar 2011
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    sacramento california usa
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    50

    Default Re: Resistant bees, productive or not

    quick thought could the genetically modified plants be some how linked to ccd , bees forage on their so called plants and bring in pollen and nectar which in turn they feed the brood which some how alters the next gen. of offspring so we end up with bees flying out of colonies and with ccd

  4. #104
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    dadeville, alabama, USA
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    Default Re: Resistant bees, productive or not

    Russell has mentioned this a time or two in several different post of the following about the primorsky bees. I, having worked bees and lived several months in the Ukraine, can attest to the following as true and will back him up....Russell has stated repeatedly Ukrainian and Russian Beekeepers do not use the Primorsky bees. They use a very nice bee call the "Carpathian bee". Which is the Carniolian bee derivative from the Carpathian mountains region in the Ukraine. The Russian/Ukrainian beekeepers consider the Primorsky bee a "trash can" bee. Not fit to be living in one of their "Long Hives." So why would we want any more of these genetics spread around. My bees are slowly developing resistance on their own the slow way, the natural way and as a whole population in a commercial setting. As for CCD being related to GM crop pollens-most likely not, as I have many of hundred of colonies on GM crops and they are doing fine. CCD is more likely related to our European honeybees interacting with Africanized Bees and their symbiote the Small Hive Beetle. Through this interaction, our bees pick up the viruses that these two creatures carry and have no immunity for. Thus the European colonies Collapse. CCD was first identified in Bees owned by David Hackenburg that were overwintering in Florida. The area is known to be "Africanized" that he was in. Ponder on this a while. How many years has CCD been actually going on??? How many years have bees in the USA been in contact with AHB and small hive beetle?? What are the corrolations?? This will have to have it own thread posted later in the day. TK

  5. #105
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    Jul 2008
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    hamilton city, new zealand
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    Default Re: Resistant bees, productive or not


  6. #106
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    Aug 2007
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    Fairfield County, Connecticut, USA
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    3,661

    Default Re: Resistant bees, productive or not

    I wonder what the Russians and Ukrainians would think about the average Italian queen shipped in a package to U.S. beekeepers.
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  7. #107
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    Apr 2011
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    Adams Co., Colorado, USA
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    157

    Default Re: Resistant bees, productive or not

    Quote Originally Posted by rrussell6870 View Post
    an environment that is unlike any in this country

    Not spent many winters in North Dakota, I take it?

  8. #108
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    Feb 2007
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    Lincolnton, NC
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    1,115

    Default Re: Resistant bees, productive or not

    Quote Originally Posted by rrussell6870 View Post
    You have the right idea... they are basically an older version of Ukrainian bees without the last 120+ years of selection... .
    I thought the Primorsky bees were what USDA bred and released years ago as Russians. Many beekeepers on Beesource seem to have them. Or, am I confused?

  9. #109
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    May 2009
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    Brandon, MS USA
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    Default Re: Resistant bees, productive or not

    BeeCurious, we have had many Russian and Ukrainian entomologists and commercial beekeepers stay with us over the years, and even with their unwavering pride for all that is native to their lands, they each begged for Sunkist stock to take to their countries... the Ukraine has very exceptional bees, as Ted pointed out... the Carpathian is gentle, sturdy, and extremely productive. If they had used a combination of the selection process that we use here with there native adaptive bees, the result would be astonishing... the down side to their situation is that the selection processes were more lax and this there are widely differing stocks in each yard... one hive may be superb in production, while the next two are less than average production but very gentle, then the next have great build up but less production... we have worked for many years teaching and exchanging knowledge and experiences with their industry leaders to help them to better isolate these traits and build on their presence across the strains... in turn, they have helped us to better understand the ways that varroa has effected their bees since its introduction, and the ways that their bees have been addressing those stresses.

    Apiator, ND is certainly a climate of its own... but the bees of the primorsky region are acclimated to much more than just cold and long winters... there are completely different food sources, dietary and behavioral foraging, pests, diseases, and predation, and competition... another aspect of the issues involved is that any strain introduced into the US MUST be evaluated to see what will happen when it is crossed with the current inhabitants... but the most important issue of all is that the US bee and agricultural system works as a system within itself... if the primorsky bee was to perform perfectly in the ND region, that is fine, but how would it effect the bees of the south, east, mid-west, west, and north... these other areas all work together to provide pollenation at different times for crops that bloom at different times and are required to feed the nation.

  10. #110
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    May 2009
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    Brandon, MS USA
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    Default Re: Resistant bees, productive or not

    Heaflaw, you are correct, and many people have been able to adjust to the different management needs of the primorsky bees in order to keep them... however, they have also been a large expense in the form of losses to many operations that were mis-informed and realised only after it was too late that these bees are lightyears away from becoming acclimated to the vast majority of our climates and environments, and after selecting away from their natural excessive swarming tendencies and without the deep winters of their homeland, they were even less of a match for varroa, and actually more of an acceptable breeding ground for shb... maybe someone from Florida, Georgia, or Texas can chime in with their experiences in this matter...

  11. #111
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    Default Re: Resistant bees, productive or not

    Again, the best defense that any bee has against pests and disease is its own natural health... bees that are acclimated to the area, allowed a wealth of foraging resources, and kept in a manner as to keep our imported pests and diseases at a minimal, will indeed survive and thrive better than any cross. Bees adapt to address the needs of their surroundings over generations... taking a strong, thriving strain from one environment, and placing it in a different environment will make it the weakest one of the new environment... only through time will that strain develop to be able to withstand the change... there are no "silver bullets", only hard work, sound science, and many generations of the both.

  12. #112
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    hamilton city, new zealand
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    Default Re: Resistant bees, productive or not

    How is the varroa resistance of the Carpathian Bee? Are they any good or need to be treated for varroa?

    Sounds like if they are resistant to varroa, they would have been a much better import than the russians. Not that they should have imported russian bees. But if they had to import, they would have done better with the Carpathian bees I guess.

  13. #113
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    Default Re: Resistant bees, productive or not

    They are fairly resistant... however, they do still use treatments there to keep varroa populations under control... I believe it has been said that the best Carpathian Carnica are as resistant as the average primorsky... resistances are all based on length of exposure... the longer a strain is exposed, the better it will be able to handle the pest or disease. I agree that the Carpathian would have been a better project... the primorsky was just assumed to be a "silver bullet", but the innerworkings of the industry was not considered like it should have been.

  14. #114
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    Default Re: Resistant bees, productive or not

    So the Carpathian bees are Carniolan in origin or are they decended from the Macedonian bees? I thought the Ukraine bees were of Macedonian origin.

    Both Carniolans and Macedonians are similar in most characters except the Macedonian Bees dont swarm much and use lot of propolis as opposed to Carniolans which swarm more and use less propolis. Both are exceptionally gentle though.

  15. #115
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    Default Re: Resistant bees, productive or not

    I had been reading about the Carpathian bees a bit in the last few days. Seems to be a good bee with a lot of good characters which are favorable. Definitely would have been a better import than the Russian bees.

  16. #116
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    dadeville, alabama, USA
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    Default Re: Resistant bees, productive or not

    Jose, both bees occur in the Ukraine. Even the Ukrainian steppe honeybee. Truth be known the steppe bee is the root stock of the Primorsky bees along with the Carpathians. I have worked with Carpathian bees and it is too bad that the rest of the world does not use them even more. TED

  17. #117
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    Default Re: Resistant bees, productive or not

    Hi TED,
    From what I have read up, they seems to be a very good bee with fast spring buildup and low swarming and very gentle. The are dark colored bees which are similar in appearance with carniolans and caucasians. Is this correct? and How was the honey production and propolis use of them? Did they show good resistance to varroa?

    Any other characters which you would like to share with us in will be nice. Always good to learn more about new races of bees.

  18. #118
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    Default Re: Resistant bees, productive or not

    Everything you have described is correct. They are a fairly large bee. And a good looking well proportioned bee. Honey production is very good and would be better if the Ukrainian beekeeping industry were just a little more modern in their approach. The Ukraine produces almost as much honey as the USA. Over in the Ukraine, treatments are expensive. One apistan strip will cost 15.50 hyrivna. Which is a lot of money for the average Ukrainian beekeeper. So the bees over time have developed pretty good resistance to Varroa. Hive Collapse does occur in the Ukraine but it was debated whether it was caused by Varroa or something else a few years back. Propolis is a little more than the average Carni and slightly less than Mnt Gray Caucs. Over in Ukraine, People do not mind a bee that uses propolis. As it is harvested and sold for use in medicines and tinctures. You can work a russian "long" hive with not too much prying of the frames due to propolis. These long hives are big, heavy affairs made of two inch thick lumber. They can house one colony or two if it is the Ukrainian version. Honey is harvested either by the frame or by the super since some beekeepers are now experimenting supering vertically on top of their long hives. Beehives in the Ukraine are painted the blue color of the country's national flag. Which is a nice color for a beehive. Beekeeping is a time honored tradition in the Ukraine That goes back thousands of years and is a source on national pride. Peter Petrovich invented the first movable frame hive with the bee space not what you have been taught that Langstroth invented it. The Ukrainians will tell you this very quickly. For every 90 people in the Ukraine, one of them is a beekeeper. Do the math-43,000,000 million people equals how many beekeepers? Women keep as many bees as the men. The bees wax is used for Foundation or candles for the Russian or Ukrainian Orthodox churches. Honey is prefered to be eaten in crystalized form. There is a system of breeding stations for bees at various districts in the country for the breeding of bees. I would recommend anybody traveling Eastern Europe to visit the Petrovich beekeeping institute. We can learn alot from these beekeepers and need more of their bees and genetics in this country. I have enjoy my time in the Ukraine with the beekeepers and the people. It is a pretty country and the people are a good gentle people just like the bees they raise. TED

  19. #119
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    hamilton city, new zealand
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    Default Re: Resistant bees, productive or not

    Thanks a lot for the reply Ted. Its always good to hear about different strains, ecotypes and subspecies of bees from people who had experience with them(like you).

  20. #120
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    Default Re: Resistant bees, productive or not

    There is a former Ukrainian marriage stamp in my passport. TED

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