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  1. #41
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    Jul 2006
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    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    3,712

    Default Re: Organic Honey is Certified?

    ...not speaking strictly of honey, what do you think you are getting when you buy something organic?

    deknow

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
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    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    9,605

    Default Re: Organic Honey is Certified?

    Something that's over priced. Confusion.
    At my local Trader Joe's :



    Right next to this :



    What message does this say?
    Regards, Barry

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
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    10,020

    Default Re: Organic Honey is Certified?

    add to this that the entire usda organic program is about methods used, and not about lab tests and residue levels (although they do come into play, you cannot certify something as organic just because it tests clean, it has to be produced according to the standard).
    I think you will find the very same truth in how the FDA operates. The formulas for pharmaceuticals is secretive and in most cases patented. Quality is controlled by methods and processes. Regulation is meant for all intents and purposes for the large corporate producers because they have the greatest impact. There is no way any regulatory body can keep tabs on all the small fries. They may be subject to the regulations but they will not be policed realistically.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Apple Valley, MN
    Posts
    375

    Default Re: Organic Honey is Certified?

    this is the crux of the problem. everyone wants some kind of consensus...somehow this is supposed to be better than disagreement and contention. The truth, however, is that different kinds of operations have different interests. Imho, it is much better to recognize these differences than to pretend they don't exist.

    Let me give you an example of what I am referring to:

    If I have a customer that wants to buy my honey and she/he asks if my honey is natural and I say "yes, of course, it is pure honey straight from the hive. I haven't used any synthetic chemicals in my hive, I've only filtered the honey once." and then that same customer a month later goes to another beekeeper and asks the same question and that beekeeper says "sure, my honey is pure, but upon further discussion tells the customer he uses chemical treatments in the hive.

    Who is misrepresenting their product? Is anyone at fault for how the customer interprets this information? If there is no consensus amongst beekeepers...

    It may not have the importance that I believe it has. I'm still learning here and haven't really formed a solid opinion on what each term should mean. Of course if any standard is decided upon then legally that is what I go with. I'm just sharing thoughts. I agree with your statement about truth being more important than consensus but I think we debate because what is true for one isn't true for another. Certainly not everyone will be satisfied with any decision, not a beekeeper, not a customer, but like organics... a group had to come to a consensus, right?

    As for what I initially believed I was getting when I purchased organic in comparison to what I KNOW I am getting now is quite different. I had to learn to read an organic label first (USDA organic, 100% organic, organic, etc...).

    To me USDA organic means: NO GMO's, No Antibiotics, No growth hormones, No Synthetic Pesticides, yadda yadda yadda. I use to believe organics was purely about health and safety of animals, it wasn't until later that I learned it was about the environment and the health of the people. Now it seems, that a lot of people know it is healthier and better for the animal and some are just learning about the environmental aspect. At least with those I've spoken to.

    Why I choose organic? Not because it is pure (as environmental toxins assure it isn't) but because just like things in my own garden, it reduces my families exposure to synthetic chemicals that they would otherwise be exposed to in non-organic products. (I should clarify that to me "pure" right now means 100% untainted). Oh, I must add,

    I feel the same way about honey. I know that bees pollinate GMO crops, I know that they pollinate pesticide laden plants, I know they bring that back to their hive and it ends up in the honey. I won't use synthetic chemicals to treat bee diseases, my approach is as natural as possible, I'd much rather feed my bees their own honey and not sugar syrup, etc... I'm reducing toxin exposure when I consume my own honey... it isn't perfect, but it helps. That is how I would sell my product to a customer. I can never be organic, I live in the middle of the city, but if I can help reduce a persons exposure to toxins with my product, I most certainly will.
    Last edited by The Soap Pixie; 03-21-2011 at 01:53 PM.
    ~Michelle

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
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    Stilwell, KS
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    1,894

    Default Re: Organic Honey is Certified?

    Organic food is folly of the rich. I cant afford to feed my family that way.

    I dont have any problems claiming my honey is organic, pure, local, untouched by aliens, or whatever it takes to bring the dollars in.

    FWIW - I dont chemically treat so I consider my honey organic, period. However, I wont lie if a consumer asks me questions. I usually say something like, "sure it's organic, I dont use any pesticides or growth hormones." Not once has anyone started quoting USDA, EPA, or FDA guidance.

    Also considering that geoscientists have found minute traces of polychlorinated biphenols (PCBs) in polar ice, there is virtually no food product that isnt contaminated to at least some degree (part per billion or trillion?). Therefore no one can really claim that their product is truely chemical free. That's probably why chemical testing isnt typcially used to define "organic" (testing is expensive and if they look closely enought, they will find something).
    Last edited by Nabber86; 03-21-2011 at 02:27 PM.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
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    Columbia county, New York, USA
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    Default Re: Organic Honey is Certified?

    I don't feel it's realistically do-able to reach a 'consensus' on honey purity and labeling among the wildly varied and numerous beekeepers out there. A consensus by whom?- a handful of people on one internet forum? A consensus is not enforceable, but it means that everyone agrees on something. If it's not enforceable and it doesn't represent everyone, most people will do as they please anyway and ignore it- especially those who stand to lose a bunch of their profits by doing so. And if it is enforceable, it's called a law or a regulation.
    The little bee returns with evening's gloom,
    To join her comrades in the braided hive... -Tennyson

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Apple Valley, MN
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    375

    Default Re: Organic Honey is Certified?

    Nabber86

    Re: organics being folly for the rich

    That is exactly what I meant about organic standards not ultimately benefitting the people but more of a benefit to animals and environment. By people I meant the majority can't afford it. Organics I would have hoped would be a well intentioned thing that should have benefitted the maJority and it doesn't. Farmers who could offer organic food aren't even allowed to market that way due to regulation Thanks to government not making allowances for the smaller farmer and thanks to those who did or would misuse the term organic.

    And your point on toxins always being present are well taken... as are omie's points on trying to come to a consensus. I appreciate the education everyone!
    ~Michelle

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
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    Stilwell, KS
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    1,894

    Default Re: Organic Honey is Certified?

    S. Pixie -

    A couple of other things to consider, naturally ocurring radiation due to potassium in bananas and nuclear fall out from Japan currently landing on South American banana plantations. How does the "Certified Organic" label deal with that somewhat gray area?

    Omie, I noticed you are located in the Hudson River Valley. I bet you wouldnt want your honey crop tested for PCBs.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
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    Apple Valley, MN
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    375

    Default Re: Organic Honey is Certified?

    Nabbber86,

    Thank you for the additional input! This is exactly why I have a love hate relationship with the idea of organics in general. When we were told in beek class there was no such thing as organic honey and then the topic was dropped quickly, I now understand why Marla and Gary didn't bother exploring it further. But through the discourse on here I feel I understand the issue much better
    ~Michelle

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Baker Oregon
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    2,463

    Default Re: Organic Honey is Certified?

    Personally, I prefer local and sustainable to organic. I won't pay more for the organic sticker, but I will pay more for produce at the local farmers market. I guess it just is a matter of your personal priorities.
    Dan Hayden 4 Years. 12 hives. Tx Free. USDA Zone 5b.

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
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    10,020

    Default Re: Organic Honey is Certified?

    Organic food is folly of the rich. I cant afford to feed my family that way.
    Can you afford the medical costs and complications associated with not eating organic food? If you knew what the repercussions were for eating cheap food I think you would be swayed the other way. Would you eat a little bit of rat poison every day. Chances are you will when you get older. We don't want to pay high prices for food any more than we want to pay high prices for gas. At least with food you can grow some of your own. If there is no difference in cheap honey vs. expensive honey then why the concern for Organic honey? Certainly you are not proposing that you can eat anything you find in the super market as long as you eat raw 100% organic honey are you?

    I don't think Organic food is a folly of the rich. I think it should be the only choice in the super market but that is just me.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  12. #52
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    Oct 2010
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    Baker Oregon
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    2,463

    Default Re: Organic Honey is Certified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Can you afford the medical costs and complications associated with not eating organic food? If you knew what the repercussions were for eating cheap food I think you would be swayed the other way.
    Is there any science that you can provide to support that?
    Dan Hayden 4 Years. 12 hives. Tx Free. USDA Zone 5b.

  13. #53
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    Apr 2009
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    Stilwell, KS
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    Default Re: Organic Honey is Certified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Can you afford the medical costs and complications associated with not eating organic food? If you knew what the repercussions were for eating cheap food I think you would be swayed the other way. Would you eat a little bit of rat poison every day.
    When you finish your risk assessment of the impact of eating non-organic food on future medical costs, send me the numbers. I'd love to see your work.

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    28,084

    Default Re: Organic Honey is Certified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    What message does this say?
    That people are paranoid about germs?
    Mark Berninghausen
    Squeak Creek Apiaries



  15. #55
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,605

    Default Re: Organic Honey is Certified?

    Germs!? The bottle says "to remove pesticides, waxes, chemicals."
    Regards, Barry

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    28,084

    Default Re: Organic Honey is Certified?

    Oh, I didn't read as much as I should have. So, that means that the Produce Manager thinks that there are "pesticides, wax and chemicals" on the produce. The Organic Produce.

    I take a little Rat Poison every day, as prescribed by my Physician. Lots of folks do and they walk around alive alot longer than if they didn't.
    Mark Berninghausen
    Squeak Creek Apiaries



  17. #57
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Apple Valley, MN
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    375

    Default Re: Organic Honey is Certified?

    Acebird, seriously?

    I know the science, and as much as I support that organics are much healthier option than the processed foods most people can afford, the fact remains, organics are not affordable!

    Try sharing your logic with my friends who both work full time, have a mortgage and two kids in school. They have to budget down to $200 a week for groceries just to be able to cover all their bills and trust me, they don't live in excess like a lot of people do. If they were to buy all organic it would cost a lot more than $200 a week, triple that amount. Breakfast, lunch and dinner doesn't come cheap. I know, because a very large percentage of our families food is organic. Just today I purchased enough groceries to make spaghetti, the ingredients are all organic, the pasta, meat, celery, onion, carrots, garlic, rosemary, milk, and the juice we drink and the bill was $42, we are a family of five. Sure, we can drink water... but that has its own set of toxins, doesn't it? Or we could NOT make our spaghetti from scratch and instead buy it canned, but the reports about canned products aren't so great either. Hmmm...

    Instead, most people buy local produce in season, garden, eat at home instead of at restaurants, and make food from scratch. That is what my friends who can afford $200 a week in groceries try their best to do. Those things are doable. Organics, not so much

    It isn't that people don't want to pay high prices for food, its that they can't.
    ~Michelle

  18. #58
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Knox Co, Ohio, USA
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    877

    Default Re: Organic Honey is Certified?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiodeLobo View Post
    Personally, I prefer local and sustainable to organic. I won't pay more for the organic sticker, but I will pay more for produce at the local farmers market. I guess it just is a matter of your personal priorities.
    I think we have a winner here! The label organic is not what most consumers think it is. Local and sustainable will be what many consumers think they are getting with organic. Plus, transportation, storage, packaging, etc. are usually much less.

    How do we describe local, sustainable honey? I think local raw and/or pure honey does that. In todays society education is needed continuosly.

    Tom

  19. #59
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    Nov 2009
    Location
    Columbia county, New York, USA
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    Default Re: Organic Honey is Certified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nabber86 View Post
    Omie, I noticed you are located in the Hudson River Valley. I bet you wouldnt want your honey crop tested for PCBs.
    Sure I would (if I was selling honey)- i'd be fine with that as long as EVERYONE's honey was tested, and not just singling me out! Then again, I don't happen to believe much in the concept of there being truly organic honey (vegetables yes, honey no), and I wouldn't be calling my honey organic. Like I suggested before, I'd be labeling my honey simply as "Raw natural local honey. No pesticides or medications are applied to our bees or hives".
    The little bee returns with evening's gloom,
    To join her comrades in the braided hive... -Tennyson

  20. #60
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    Apr 2009
    Location
    Stilwell, KS
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    1,894

    Default Re: Organic Honey is Certified?

    Omie - I wasnt trying to pick on you. I have done a lot of work with cleanup of PCBs, especially with GE and the Hudson River. What a mess.

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