Requeen twice a year

[Barry]

"And, like many of you, Dave Mendes has found it necessary to re-queen twice a year." Joe Traynor

http://www.beesource.com/point-of-vi...march-15-2011/

I'm curious to know how many here requeen twice a year out of necessity? I had no idea it was that bad.

[alpha6]

It isn't Barry. I don't know any commercial guys that do that. "Dave" probably needs to look for a new queen source. Talking with Lyle Johnson, the largest broker of bees in the US, he recommends fall re-queening on any hive with a queen over one year old. Most guys I know re-queen every other year as a norm.

[lloyd@rossrounds.com]

You have to understand Dave M's business. He makes ALL his income from pollination. First from almonds, later from blueberries and cranberries. Bees moved 3,000+ miles and then moved 3-6 times more within a 'farm'. Plus there are lots of other beekeepers/hives around that carry every kind of disease/resistance known to mankind.

I am mildly surprised that Dave 'only' requeens 2X a year. I know another guy who 'brags' that every hive is requeened 10-18 times a year! (once for every pollination drop.)

The migratory commercial guys I know who raise splits in the south, come north for 1x-2x apple pollination, and then set for honey only requeen 1x a year. But that is an entirely different business than what Dave and 'other guy' are into.

Lloyd

[Roland]

We requeen when the queen is failing, not time or calander dependant.

Crazy Roland

[NorthernIllinoisPlumber]

I thought the bees are in charge if the queen is failing? Or, is it too late when they decide?

[Michael Palmer]

I can't imaging having to requeen twice a year...or even once a year. There are colonies in my operation that haven't been requeened in years and still maintain colonies at the top of the yard sheet numbers. Requeened themselves yes of course. By me, not if they remain productive.

I wonder if this need to requeen twice a year fortells troubles in New England. Dave and his field rep are trying to flood New England with cheap Florida nucs. In Vermont, we refused to give them any contact info from local clubs or state association. Bees coming here that are propped up by Tylan and a varroa treatment of the month spell trouble with a capital T.

My opinion and I hope I'm wrong.

[ChristopherA]

Honestly I dont understand why requeen even once a year much less twice.

To me it makes me feel that we are breeding or abusing the bees, breeding for failure. I will not requeen until I see some sort of failure happening. I will have tight swarm management to prevent losing a queen. I am going to leave a lot of natural forage in the hive to including stockpiling frames of honey and pollen like I did this past year for winter and early spring.

I dont know, if someone explain why to replace a queen annually can truly convience me, maybe, but it isnt in my plan.

[jim lyon]

Ok here it is Christopher. As a migratory beekeeper who requeens annually here is the logic. We raise our own cells and we have our bees in an ideal environment for matings in the early spring. The cost of requeening is essentially your cost of raising a cell and the really great thing about it is that you not only have a new queen but you have broken the brood cycle and really set back varroa in the process. No type of hive that I have ever used can put on a honey crop like a well timed nuc with a new queen that is "on the grow". In addition late summer drone layers are rarely seen. Our methods aren't necessarily the blueprint for success for everyone. There are a number of quite successful operations that dont do things at all like us and not only are successful but don't have to live away from home for months at a time. And yes we have our problems like everyone but outside of bringing in some breeding stock haven't spent a dime on bee or queen purchases in years and have not only kept our numbers up but have even increased our numbers in recent years.

[Matt Beekman]

I guess it all comes down to your definition of "requeening twice a year". What I have read in other literature is that he introduces two queen cells a year. Basically, two attemps at forced supercedure twice a year. Is he truly requeening twice a year? Probably not. Lyle is right to point out the need to fall requeen. IMHO, if you are at more than 10% winter mortality, you need to requeen more hives in the fall; amongst other things.

[mnbeekeeper]

its all about managing the bees to do what you want when you want. 2 frames of brood and a cell in march = a double by the end of may so full of bees and brood ready to kick ass on a honey flow for the summer and by fall you will have big colony, young queen to take you to the next season. when splitting i never kill a good old queen. i just make 2 or 3 new colonies off of her and let her run her course in life. some things better left to nature.

just curious to those that requeen in the fall. are you raising your own cells and just sticking one in in hopes of the best. or are you finding old queen killing her and replacing with new mated queen or cell.

[Radical Bee]

I don't necessarily recommend this for another climate area but to answer your question; i make the splits the same time i am in the hive to pull the honey super(s). Being lazy i try to take the second deep with all the bees and make sure i get a couple of brood frames w/o the queen, especially the youngest frame of eggs/brood. Let em raise their own queen and overwinter in singles, feed em 1-2 gallons of syrup and walk away, no mite treatment. Lost one by Dec, probably robbed out, 3 more by mid-Feb, none since. Feeding now and temps are 38-68 here and i have had to put a second deep on half a dozen, the other 20 have 5-7 frames covered, all are queenright. Treatment next week, expect all to be strong by early soybeans June 15. If i decide to feed more i will pull some brood frames in May and make splits with 7 frames of brood.

[swarm_trapper]

jim how are you requeening every spring?

[jim lyon]

ST we find her and usually kill her though we are thinking of caging the better ones and reusing them as needed in those that don't "catch". In the past we have rebuilt and re celled those that miss but haven't had consistent success with this.

[sqkcrk]

I don't requeen twice a year. I don't requeen at all. Unless someone wants to call the splitting I do, to replace deadouts, requeening.

I have heard, and I believe it was Dave Miksa who said it, that a colony will supercede every so often. Meaning requeening naturally occurs during the year.

Every time colonies are moved, on a semi or otherwise, and especially long distances, I believe, queens are lost in the process. I have heard as much as 10% on average. So, perhaps what Dave Mendes is doing is adding queens cells, as mentioned before, in order to insure that his colonies have queens w/out having to check each and every one of them to see if they do. It's the most efficient way to do it, in his case. If that is what he is doing and why.

Short of asking him, who knows? Anybody have his number? I bet I can get it thru another Dave. Dave Hackenberg. If he isn't too busy in CA moving bees out of almonds.

[Kingfisher Apiaries]

Talked to Dave M in the past, just got to call in the evenings.

mike

[sqkcrk]

This Topic is a lot more complicated than most of us can wrap our heads around and I am not really able to transfer all that Dave Hackenberg just told me. Very few of us can relate to what goes on in operations of the size which Dave Mendes does. Any of our problems pail in comparison. Iam talking about magnitudes of scale beyond what most of us could manage to manage.

Here are some snipets of comments from DH. "Twice a year? How about three times?", "Queens don't last.", "One beekeeper w/ 14,000 cols used 22,800 queens last year.", "Queens are lasting 6 months.", "Not the moving so much as it is everything else." Then he went into corn, and pesticides and more.

In Hacks operation, last year, the most cols they had on the ground at one time was 2,835. They used 5,700 queens.

When one talks to David Hackenberg you get a tutorial on the state of commercial beekeeping and commercial beekeepers in the United states today. There is so much going on it's a wonder we haven't seen deaths, what w/ the stress and pesticide exposures out there.

I can't help but admire what the Daves of beekeeping are handling. Far beyond what any of us can imagine. I'm looking forward to hearing what someone else hears from dave Mendes. If no one calls him, I will call Hack back and get his number.

Oned last quote from DH, on Dave Mendes. "He'll tell ya."

[peacekeeperapiaries]

On a much smaller scale than eith DM or DH we see the same problems with queens....we have purchased queens and cells from several reputable sources, and graft a lot of our own... Queens just are not lasting like they used to. We requeen one per year, plus our splits and the swarms we catch get new queens. BTW we dont pollinate and only move our bees once per year to orange blossom and back....it used to be a lot easier.

[sqkcrk]

move our bees once per year to orange blossom and back....it used to be a lot easier.

Hack no longer goes into the groves. Bees die from going there. Cols coming out of oranges don't last.

In a way, thhe reason for requeening twice or three times a year has alot to do w/ modern agriculture and the use of systemic pesticides.

[peacekeeperapiaries]

Hack no longer goes into the groves. Bees die from going there. Cols coming out of oranges don't last.

I had heard he stopped working orange...I agree a lot of stuff is sprayed in the groves and that lends to colony health problems.. We opt to keep the bees in smaller groves and know when they and the groves around them are going to spray and with what...we were two weeks late getting the bees to one of the groves this year due to an early bloom and the groves playing "catchup"... I had to wait till the grove behind ours finished spraying...then I waited another week to be safe or my bees could have been dead...in our neck of the woods If I dont work orange...Im broke but my new best friend is the "spray guy" who contracts with most of the groves in my area...we stay in close touch this time of year...its has paid off, our colonies are booming and honey is being put in the supers...sucks that I missed those two weeks though, thats a lot of honey. And BTW I agree, modern agriculture and pesticides have dealt most of the problems we face, and surely lend to the queen failure problems we all encounter.

[Keith Jarrett]

, the most cols they had on the ground at one time was 2,835. They used 5,700 queens."

Sounds like there are some other issues to address other than queens.