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Olivarez bees

29K views 89 replies 32 participants last post by  Arnie 
#1 ·
I'm about to purchase 10 Italian packages from these guy and I need some advise about my decision. I live in southeast MI so we have long winters. Im doing some small scale honey production, I'd like some opinions on using Italians up north and there overwintering ability. I can adjust my order for carni's if there better suited for my neck of the woods. Also been thinking about getting at lest 1 package of minn hygenic to breed some queens maybe mid summer to replace the Italians. Am I making this to hard or could this be a good plan going into winter.
 
#4 ·
I bought 10 packages of Italians from Olivarez in spring 2010, not a one of them is alive today, all were dead outs by the time December rolled in. I think the commercial Italian stock is weak nowadays, they can't make the northern winters, especially this one here in Michigan. Another thing Italians do that hurts their chances of surviving a Michigan winter is raising brood all the way into late November, using up their winter stores to raise more and more brood. When you do a late fall inspection they appear to have enough honey to make the winter, but what you don't know until it is too late is that they use up most of their honey raising more brood for another month or so after what was supposed to be your last inspection of the season. I think I would try Carni's before I would go with Italians here in Michigan. I had the choice of Italians or Carni's when I picked up my packages last spring also, I think I picked the wrong one. John
 
#5 ·
Each one has their trade offs. Italians, as stated, are not frugal on their stores. Carnis can build up very quickly once the weather turns. We get some false springs here in the PNW. It can go from 50s and 60s one week to 30s and snow the next. In those cases, you end up feeding carnis an awful lot.
 
#6 ·
at our recent bee meeting one of the main speakers said to basically plan on requeening all your packages with another high quality queen as there has been trouble with package bees. another guy last year said to try and get local nucs in spring - people were reporting problems with packages to him in 2009
 
#9 ·
Beeup - try al little bit of everything, see what works best for you. We got some very light Italians once, possibly Cordovans?, that where VERY good honey producers, and with above average feeding, made it through a Wiscsonsin winter. We also tried some Strachen NWC last year. We will know real soon how they did.


Roland
 
#10 ·
I'm from the northwest where we get some cold winters too and I'm a Carniolan man all the way. Carniolans' native habitat is the Alps of eastern Europe. They've evolved to deal with cold weather and brutal winters, unlike their Mediterranean cousins who just want to sit around drinking wine and eating cheese in the sunshine. Go with the Carnies, man.
 
#12 ·
I don't get it. Why would you order Italian queens if you want to replace them later with minnesota hygienic queens? If you want minn. hygienic queens , get them by all means, but it will be a lot easier if you got them from the start.

I get a lot of their carniolan queens and they do well in our neck of the woods (PNW).

Jean-Marc
 
#14 ·
We do so have winters here. Gee, San Francisco got 1/8 inch of snow last week. First time in 35 years. You shoulda heard the weather-weenies on the TV, prognoticating all manner of biblical doom.
 
#15 ·
I was there a few weeks ago and the weather was nothing short of spectacular, everybody walking around saying this just isnt normal. I told them don't worry in weather there are always "pay backs".
 
#16 ·
Forget breeds.

Get a hold of local bees or bees north of your location if you're concerned about winter. Seeing as how you're in Michigan, that could be a little harder. Zia Queenbees sells some Northern Michigan stock.

Olivarez is California. I wouldn't do it. I grew up in Southern Oregon, I own bees from Glenn CA. Those are pollination bees. They're not what you're looking for.
 
#17 ·
The best overwintering bee as far as frugality of stores is the Mnt Gray Caucasian bee. Sadly, I do not think that there are any pure bloodlines of it left in the USA that are commercially available at the moment. In a year or two, Dr. Shepard will be releasing some lineages of these gentle bees. TK PS We use a Carniolian/Italian cross with a whiff of mnt gray and buckfast.
 
#18 ·
If you want some good hardy bees.... Russian Bees are the way.... You just need to be more careful with the bees. (In Russia Bees take 7 months of snow and cold temp. with success)

Italians are just not suitable for harsh winters. I never had Carnolians but from what I have been told

-they handle winter better
-faster spring buildup
-build wax faster... Frames get drawn faster
 
#19 ·
So what are some drawbacks of Carniolans? Overall they sound like a better bee for me here in a northern climate. I heard they cut back on brood rearing better than Italians when nectar/pollen get scarce. But I also think I heard they generally are not as productive either as Italians. John
 
#31 · (Edited)
Pros of Carnolian

* Earlier morning forager
* Forages on colder and wetter days than most other bees
* Overwinters well on small stores, as queen stops laying in the fall
* Rapid build up in early spring
* Don't wander off
* Exceptionally gentle and easy to work
* Brood production is dependant on availability of supplies, hence more food more forages, less food smaller population
* Less Robbing
* Less susceptible to brood disease

* Creates less brace and burr comb

Cons of Carnolian

* Swarms easily when no expansion room is available
* If pollen is scarce brood rearing greatly diminishes


Source: http://www.beekeepingstarterkit.com/page/1317490


How I deal with the cons-

If you give them space and check them them often they wont swarm.
When I check them and find swarm cells I take the frame with swarm cells and put into new hive box with a few frames of honey, Bees, and brood.

Or I do a fake swarm effect....

However, ventilation and adding boxes for space will really decrease chance of swarming. Make sure to have a good water source. Carnolians are more productive in wetter climates. In dry climates they both work well. It all depends on health of hive and nectar availability.

Hope this helps...
 
#21 ·
WireForStereo, Yeah, I should have added that to the end of my post. I learned a lesson about Italian's this this last fall and winter that I should have figured out years ago. They just don't do that well in the harsh long winters we have up here. No, question, they have many good qualities like building up fast, gentleness, productivity, but like you say dead bees are very unproductive. I remember having much trouble even 30 years ago getting them through most winters up here. Given excessive stores and a mild winter, yes, they can make it through alright. I think I will change my stock over to something else this year and see what results I get. I may try rearing a few survivor Italian queens from the hives that have made the last couple winters (how they did it I don't know) in a row here, maybe they will show an advantage of some sort. John
 
#22 ·
When I hear that someone lost 10 out of 10 I highly doubt the breeder can be blamed. At least for 100% of the collapse. As a competitor to OHB and as one who has attended meetings with their staff at bee and queen breeder functions I can attest to the fact that they are doing things to improve queen productivity beyond what the average breeder is doing.

Somehow people tend to think the pre Varroa days have come back and the beekeeping techniques of slam and feed are all thats needed today.


How come Ray and company didn't loose 100% of their bees this winter?

If questioned I bet Mr. 10 out of 10 did not do either one or all of the following things since getting his bees.

1. Check mite loads in August and treat accordingly.
2. Check nosema loads on a periodic basis and treat appropriately.
3. Feed pollen supplement in copious amounts going into the fall.
4. Feed the bees with syrup as so the lid on the top box produced a dull thud when tapped. ( for those of you in Lodi that means fill the second box till its full BEFORE the cold weather arrives)
5. keep them out of the wind.

As old blue boxes says himself and I'm paraphrasing here: "Lazy beekeepers make lazy bees" and may I add most likely dead ones.

Those on the lazy or "natural" bandwagon are sooner or later about to fall off the wagon and get run over by it.

If I was a woodpecker in a Michigan tree and observed the beekeeping habits of the owner of the aforementioned dead hives I would bet Mr. 10 out of 10 fits at least partially into one of these categories.

Besides lambasting OHB's bees lets see an honest response as to what regimen you followed with the packages from the day you received them till he day they "died. "

You will get a better opportunity to get responses as to what might have gone wrong in your attempt to keep them alive.
 
#25 ·
Aside from the 'feed treat feed treat treat treat feed' crowd, bees have survived millions of years without our help, and should in all logic be able to do it today.

Here is some objective evidence for why a northerner should not buy southern or California bees:

I bought California bees, raised them in Oregon fine for six years. No problem. Moved them to Arkansas (which is south but has startingly cold spells to -24) and all but one of them died of cold starvation. That's when they can't move the cluster and starve to death within inches of capped honey. [They often do this in December, even before the actual really cold weather.]

I bought Georgia bees while living here and they have consistently had problems with cold starvation. Same exact problems. Small cell organic stock and all.

All this was done without treatments and without feeding in the fall. I have not had a hive die of regular 'ran out of food' starvation, only southern hives dying of cold starvation. If you have to feed, you are a poor manager, and rob too much.

Understand I'm not trashing Olivarez or anybody else's bees. I am saying you'll have more success obtaining bees acclimatized to your area. So you need to start with them, or develop them over time by increasing with survivors. Starting with them will be more fun.
 
#27 ·
Keith and Company,

I am referring to someone dead between me and you who has the proclivity to not feed at all. Better said, very little. One pound of sub per hive and no syrup. None. Dead out rate very bad. Although I can hardly blame the loses on no feed alone as his summer yards are smack in the middle of a spray zone quagmire. The no feed fact is not helping his situation to say the least.

Enough said.

Only part of the equation as we all know.
 
#28 ·
I think a whole lot of last years failures can be placed on poorly mated queens. Of the 10 I bought (from another N. cali breeder) only one made it through the summer. The rest were superceded, or never took. I've never had a batch of queens perform that poorly. I have similar stories from other well-seasoned beekeepers.
 
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